Abby Sunderland - The Debate

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Mariness

MarkJ - I don't necessarily disagree. plane, and was directly in control at the time of the accident.
.

Thanks for taking the time to look it up I think its incredably important we look at her and Vicki Van Meter the 11 year old pilot who suicided at 26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicki_Van_Meter

Why did Jessica Dubroff and father and 'instructor' decide to take off? To keep up with Media commitments. <--- Fact!

Who was in control? That type of thing can well be argued in these cases too. All of a sudden its not the record atemptee who is flying/sailing/in control its the auto pilot, the 'team', the person who goes along but promises to stay below unless theres an emergency.

Notice the way these 'records' can be manipulated? It says solo and unassisted, (abby had to drop the unassisted or nonstop) and anytime as there is no record anyway they can just drop the word 'solo' and say that an adult is in the forward cabin promising not to interfere unless theres an emergency...

So the 7 year old girl is on the runway but going too slow... the plane leaves the ground but is below take off speed... so the 'instructor' takes over stalls and crashes.

Who's at fault? The 7 year old that took off or the person who held the controlls when it hit the ground?

If they didn't allow 7 year old pilots and 7 year old sailors we would never have to find out

As you say the deaths were unnecessary... as are the future deaths of sailors attemping this non existant record.



Mark
PS just to make things more scary have a look at the family background of the Dubroff family and the Sunderland family. There is an extreemly interesting similarity. I wonder if anyone can pick it? And its not religion. But may have something to do with the way both families treat authority!

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Mariness

It doesn't change what she was trying to do, but they would be just as dead, just as unnecessarily.

Your right, of course. The common thread here is a rush to set a record involving a minor. Mark's right too...although it depends on the kid, eventually this is gonna turn out badly. We've already had incidents involving collisions at sea and dismastings. Lets say you're 15, and you tell your dad you want to sail around the world as fast as possible...your dad spends a butt load of money, pulls a team together, makes promises to a bunch of corporate sponsors, and gets you already to go. You are poised on the shore, finally realizing you now have to enter the Southern Ocean in Winter. Can you tell your dad to call it off? I dont know about you, but I could barely ask my dad to borrow the car...and I was two years older! The kid might feel like they're on a freight train with no brakes...

[osirissail]

Maybe those sentiments/thoughts are more cogent than the arguments about at what age can you "do" the work necessary to accomplish a record or whatever. Physically many teens are sent off to war, work, or whatever because they are capable of performing the tasks needed. However, when it comes to being able to make "independent judgment decisions" that go contrary to authority or authority figures, that is where the danger lies.
- - I would suggest that a homeless or orphan teen would be more "mature" about making contrary to authority decisions than teens from a "good family."

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by osirissail

sent off to war, work, .... "independent judgment decisions"

I agree with you.

When young people are sent to war/work etc they go in menial positions, there were no 16 year old army officers in WW2, No Warrant Officers either, CPO's etc. Certainly no 15 year olds, or younger.

If there at all kids on the front line are just cannon fodder. But in reality used for staff boys for the officers (Batmen), cleaners, stores boys, cabin boys, etc.

The skills to sail around the world may be learned at a younger age but that wherewithal, resilience tenacity and occupational intelligence that allows independent judgment decisions just can't be there. Thats the level of somone with a few hard won stripes on their arms, at least.

In the sailing ship days the Midshipmen started young, 12 or 13 (?), but they were kids under close supervision doing an officers course that took them about 6 years to complete(?). They didn't expect a 13 to 16 year old to command.

[Bill Lee]

My timing is a little off but back to the cost of SAR - I don't believe that the 'victim' should pay - I've already posted on this. However, I am grateful for those individuals who RESPONSIBLY push barriers. How else would we know our limits and be able to beat them. There was a time when we thought it was impossible to fly from North America to Europe non-stop, to go to the moon, to climb Mount Everest. People who RESPONSIBLY take on those barriers do so for all of humanity. I take off my hat to them. I don't think SAR should ever have to investigate whether someone/group is acting responsibly or not. Their mandate is rescue and they should stick with that. I don't think regulations will help (and we definately don't want that). There may not be an answer. There are 2 issues regarding Abby's record breaking attempt that call into question the issue of 'responsibly': her age/experience (and she may very well pass the experience test) and the season she was in the Southern Ocean. I'm glad she was rescued - she's just a kid (as far as I'm concerened). Cheers,
Bill

[Drew13440]

Good point, Mark. That is why they are called "infantry" in the army.

[slomotion]

Originally Posted by Bill Lee

There are 2 issues regarding Abby's record breaking attempt that call into question the issue of 'responsibly': her age/experience (and she may very well pass the experience test) and the season she was in the Southern Ocean.

I agree on the season. It was a foolish and unjustifiable risk, and the result could have been much worse. We still don't know the circumstances of her knockdown, but there is no shame in knockdowns. They are a frequent and commonly unavoidable consequence of sailing remote and dangerous waters regardless of season. But sailing those waters on the eve of winter increases the risk and renders it unacceptable.

Nevertheless, I think Abby passed the skill/ability test. She sailed from California around the Horn all the way to Cape Town.

Sir Robin Knox-Johnson was knocked down. Sir Francis Chichester was knocked down. Bernard Moitessier was knocked down. Jon Sanders was knocked down. Jesse Martin was knocked down. No one questions the sailing ability of those gentlemen.

[S&S]

Originally Posted by slomotion

I agree on the season. It was a foolish and unjustifiable risk, and the result could have been much worse. We still don't know the circumstances of her knockdown, but there is no shame in knockdowns. They are a frequent and commonly unavoidable consequence of sailing remote and dangerous waters regardless of season. But sailing those waters on the eve of winter increases the risk and renders it unacceptable.

Nevertheless, I think Abby passed the skill/ability test. She sailed from California around the Horn all the way to Cape Town.

Sir Robin Knox-Johnson was knocked down. Sir Francis Chichester was knocked down. Bernard Moitessier was knocked down. Jon Sanders was knocked down. Jesse Martin was knocked down. No one questions the sailing ability of those gentlemen.

I think that the choice of boat also had a lot to do with her having to "push the button". Very poor planning in that aspect as well.

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by slomotion

Nevertheless, I think Abby passed the skill/ability test. She sailed from California around the Horn all the way to Cape Town.

I doubt there is anyone on this forum that doesn't admire her sailing skills and bravery. I'd even bet that with another boat and proper passage planning she would have made it.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by slomotion

, but there is no shame in knockdowns.

Let me think about that overnight.


I don't think I agree.

A knockdown comes from a wave rolling the boat on its ear. That means the boat had too much energy. The energy should be lowered by reefing, dousing sail or drogues etc until it is safely coping with the seas.

The skippers either were trying to go too fast or made an error by being below/asleep.

(I certainly don't take any account of 'rogue waves as all waves down there are 'rogue' size!)

I'm not trying to say I do something better than Chitchester or the others, but I don't think any would have thought it was their best sailing moment. Wouldn't all of them be booting themselves up the bum saying 'I can't let that happen again'?

Shouldn't the prudent seaman stop, hove to, or slow down till its safe?


I need to think about this. What does everyone else think?

If one says there's no shame in a knockdown it means Abby wasn't at fault for losing her stick? But of course she was at fault. She was the only person on the boat. She was at fault the same as JW was for hitting a ship.... Yes, the Chineese helped


Mark

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

I doubt there is anyone on this forum that doesn't admire her sailing skills and bravery. I'd even bet that with another boat and proper passage planning she would have made it.

Hang on a moment with that one toooooo. Bravery? Stupidity and bravery are not the same thing!

The parents and she risked lives for some record that doesnt exist and in trying she blundered mulitple times in planning and sailing skills ending up being knocked down, then again being knocked down losing the mast, then losing boat and nearly her life and the rescuing captain.

What is there to admire in that?

It must be too late at night for me... I need to go sleep and have a think about these posts...


Mark

[slomotion]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

If one says there's no shame in a knockdown it means Abby wasn't at fault for losing her stick? But of course she was at fault. She was the only person on the boat. She was at fault the same as JW was for hitting a ship.... Yes, the Chineese helped

This, indeed, seems to be the prevailing view. And I find it very odd. Many of the most illustrious solo sailors in history have been knocked down, and their seamanship is never questioned. Of course, Abby's knockdown may well have been her fault, but we can't know that because she has not given an account of the circumstances. It is just as possible and probably more likely that it was unavoidable. Sometimes conditions are so extreme that they overwhelm the boat regardless of whether you try to heave to, lie ahull, use a sea anchor, or run with the storm. We know this is true simply because it has happened to so many great sailors. Also, sometimes there is simply no warning or chance to prepare. I was nearly knocked down in the Caribbean by a freak gust while under full sail in what were otherwise 15 knot winds. I don't know how I could have avoided it except by not being there.

You can, of course, claim that it was Abby's fault simply because she was asking for trouble by sailing solo in dangerous waters, but that's not quite the same thing as poor seamanship. I tend to think that at some level all solo nonstop circumnavigators are crazy.

[Sabbatical II]

So the solo sailor has to sleep sometime. I've only ever gone solo on short coastal passages. I would assume in the conditions that Abby faced that if I needed to have a sleep, I would have minimal sail up and probably be trailing some sort of a drogue while I slept because I'm not going to respond real quick to conditions worsening. I haven't heard Abby or her team even mention the word "drogue" although, I'm sure we'll hear more soon.

What do you seasoned single handers do?

Greg

[slomotion]

Originally Posted by Eleebana

So the solo sailor has to sleep sometime. I've only ever gone solo on short coastal passages. I would assume in the conditions that Abby faced that if I needed to have a sleep, I would have minimal sail up and probably be trailing some sort of a drogue while I slept because I'm not going to respond real quick to conditions worsening. I haven't heard Abby or her team even mention the word "drogue" although, I'm sure we'll hear more soon.

What do you seasoned single handers do?

The only thing I've heard is something like "a big wave and a short mast." Maybe we'll get a detailed account, maybe not.

I'm not a fan of solo passage making. My record is 26 hours - without sleep - which was probably more dangerous than sleeping. Obviously, I do not claim that no knockdowns are the sailor's fault. But, it would be equally false to claim that all of them are. For example, large breaking waves can overwhelm just about any storm tactic. My one experience with a drogue was not good - the rudder jammed full right and turned us broadside while sliding down the trailing face of a wave.

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Hang on a moment with that one toooooo. Bravery? Stupidity and bravery are not the same thing!

Ok...maybe not everyone admires everything. Mark maybe a little cranky...most old folks are in bed by now It's easy for him to talk! He's doing it right!, and he respects the power of the Sea. Lets remove all the poor planning and purchasing involved in this attempt. Remove the parents and the sponsors. I still think (even though she didn't know what she didn't know) that Abby's got guts, cajones, cubes, yarbles...whatever ya want to call it.