Abby Sunderland - The Debate

[rocma]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

This is what I want: I want Abby to be found, and rescued without injury. Following her safe return, I want every cent of her rescue charged to her parents. Then, possible criminal charges for buying their daughter a 40 foot race boat and turning her loose in the Southern Ocean in June. When I think of what could be happening to that girl right now, it pisses me off.

So if you have a problem like dismasting or a keel that broke off, who are we going to charge for your rescue? Your parents?
What is the difference rescueing "anybody" compared to JW?? None basically.
Or why are we still all paying hefty insurance premiums for chainsmokers? People who get behind a wheel drunk? or handicapped people still wanting children, eventhough they know they will be handicapped. Etc. etc.

Come on people. Live and let live. This is something this girl wanted to do, so bless her and admire her for her spirit.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by D&D

Crossing from Cape Town to Australia would approximately follow 40 degrees latitude. One could go into higher latitudes for a shorter (Great Circle) route, of course, but that would be very brave indeed in winter as it's tough enough along 40 degrees south! The sail crossing will take ~5 weeks, perhaps more.

Gale conditions in June along the Roaring 40's are considered a certainty and the frequency is officially (in Ocean Passages) listed at >10 days/month, i.e. around half the time, whereas in January gales are expected <5 days/month. Furthermore, in the winter months icebergs are considered far more likely, to the point (in the opinion of some mariners anyway) they should be expected whereas in summer months icebergs along 40 degrees are considered rare.

It therefore follows that a June crossing will see both icebergs and something like 2-3 weeks of gale force conditions whereas a summer crossing would encounter less than a week of gale conditions and be very unlikely to see icebergs. Call me a chicken, but that sure sounds like a difference in weather that would matter a lot to me!

You've taken what I said out of context a bit. Please go back and read the post again. The question and response concerned whether or not the boat was "designed" for the summer or winter season, and I said basically the boat was designed to handle southern ocean storms be they summer or winter ones.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by jallum

Fair enough - as long as we don't expect anyone to deviate from their Chosen Path™ to help us should things not go to plan. We can't really have it both ways, now can we?

I don't think you can ever control what one "expects", but you can control your response. You decide to help or not, their expectations are irrelevant.

[Ahnlaashock]

She is safe. The air chair quarterbacks are here.
At the risk of sounding pretty and even uneducated.
Given sponsors that would pay for the boat, time to learn the things I would need to know to operate the boat in a best case fashion, and a record/goal that had a good chance of making sure I could continue to cruise forever, I would be in training tomorrow to prepare for the attempt.
There is no shame in falling during the dance.
The only shame is in not dancing when the chance is given, in my opinion anyway..
I do not understand the people yelling about the cost of the rescue, not even knowing who is paying what, because there might be 2$ of their taxes involved. My government just gave billions to big business because big business told them they were in a hard patch, and most of that was a manipulated con game. Rescue all the Abby's there are, once a week, before you do that again.

[Jim D]

From Paypal, here is something about the recipient of Save Wild Eyes donations:

Recipient information
Donations coordinator: Yoyi Inc.
A credit card transaction will appear on your bill as "PAYPAL *SHOECITYUSA".
Contact email: info (at) abby16 (dot) com
Contact Phone Number: 562. 698. 2400


(Note to Humming: sorry to hear that sympathy card didn't work. Man, I hate that I wasted it. I am looking for a "Really Smart Guy" card, and will play that one if I can just find it.)


~

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by Ahnlaashock

There is no shame in falling during the dance. The only shame is in not dancing when the chance is given, in my opinion anyway...

I’m kinda with you on this… I agree there is a legitimate ethical debate about when is “young,” too young and I'm not totally on all-fours with these record setting attempts, regardless of age, boat length, whatever… however, I sail with my 13-yo grandson a good deal of the time and although I have far more experience, his eyesight is keener, his instincts excellent and although I’d not send him around the globe, or even the Bay, his intense acuity has headed off embarrassment more than once – youth does bring significant advantages… but beyond that, this is just part of the larger sailing debate – what right has any recreational sailor to call for help when it might consume resources or endanger lives… is it okay to call for help in June, but not August – is it okay on Thursday but not the weekend… what if the SAR folks just had a family emergency of their own, then what… the permutations border on endless…

In this case, Abby like Jessica were already quite experienced sailors, more so than many of us I’ll wager, and although I prefer the vessel chosen by the Watson family rather than the one chosen by the Sunderlands, it’s all about pushing the envelope a little and even the stoutest vessels have been dismasted. And even the most experienced voyagers have come to grief – I give you something as simple as Moitessier at Cabo, and whatever happened to Slocum or Tangvald… sometimes the weatherman just doesn’t cooperate… thank goodness there are still mariners who will drop what they’re doing to save another sailor in peril…

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by Surveyor

If someone wants to achieve something, no matter the age, we have no right to restrict them. It wasnt all that long ago that being 13 years old was considered grown up. It has only been the last 75 or so years that our personal liberties began being restricted based on age.

So now we have a raging debate about a 16yo being allowed by her parents to sail through extreme conditions. A 13yo girl was already denied by her Nanny Country the right to sail solo for her own safety.

Next it is YOU who is denied. They will say its for your own good but there will be more sinister underlying reasons. It may not happen in our lifetimes but it will happen, one small step at a time.

In Canada at least, the age of majority was set to 21 in 1867 and reduced to 18 in 1970. Of course in 1867 women and children were still considered chattel, a fairly wide spread point of view into the 20th century. In the US slavery as a legal entity ended in 1865 but segregation continued into the 1970's.

I guess the erosion of personal liberty you're refering to was specific to certain demographics.

[xxuxx]

Originally Posted by David M

They are children for gawds sake...not lab rats to run tests on to see at what age the first one dies.



Sorry, but I am pretty passionate about endangering children like this. Its pretty easy to predict that this will stop only after a child has lost their life.

Thanks to God....you are NOT my dad!!!! She could just as easily been hit by a drunk driver and been killed!! At least it is her choice to survive or die.....not some adult who only thinks of them as "children"!
Thank goodness she has some really great parents who have confidence in her and her abilities and have the finances to make it happen. Not all 16 year olds have the same abilities. For instance: take 16 yr. old Shaniqua Jackson from Harlem New York. Put her butt out there and she is a goner. Put Abby out there and she has the skills to make it....Probably some skills better than ours. I detest adults lumping all teenagers as "children"....and then passing judgement under the guise of Responsiblity. A word that has created some really nightmarish laws in our society.

[sabray]

comparing solo single handed circumnavigating to driving or walking down the street is nuts. So this will be a little nuts. So far this year 50% of the under 18 solo circumnavigaters have made it back to port.. 100% experienced a knockdown.50% of the boats were abandoned in the Indian ocean.
If I were facing similar odds when I got behind the wheel or walked down the street Id think long and hard before going out my front door

[rocma]

@Sabray: the comparison of xxuxx is not nuts whatsoever. The chances of this happening is far, far greater than dying while circumnavigating. So xxuxx: point well made.

[billgow]

Originally Posted by Ahnlaashock

I do not understand the people yelling about the cost of the rescue, not even knowing who is paying what, because there might be 2$ of their taxes involved. My government just gave billions to big business because big business told them they were in a hard patch, and most of that was a manipulated con game. Rescue all the Abby's there are, once a week, before you do that again.

Sorry, I disagree with this 100%.

I don’t approve of either. My country (probably same as yours) has no business bailing out idiocy and stunts like this or the financial debacle perpetrated by the mega banks and the criminals on Wall Street. I could go on for hours about this, especially the cronyism between government and mega business but I won’t. I think everybody is disgusted with it.

Where do you draw the line and quit bailing fools out? Why should society be held accountable for their actions? How about the compounding effect of bailing out lots of fools (or worse the eternally unproductive)? How about the fall out of new regulations imposed in a twisted measure to save money?

[David M]

So do we keep lowering the solo child age threshold until one dies and then raise the age by one year and then say it is okay for a child at this age to head out on the ocean on a boat alone?

As far as people doing ridiculously dangerous things on the water, all a countries authorities would need to do is tell them before leaving the dock that if they choose go to sea in a boat that is that unsafe (effectively committing suicide by stupidity), then don't expect a rescue from this country. This still gives fools the option of being foolish without burdening the taxpayer or risking the lives of rescuers.

On the other hand, Certificates of Non-Stupidity could be issued by departure countries which would authorize one free rescue.

If one does not like the idea then don't visit the country in the first place.

[Seahunter]

Originally Posted by Hirophant

Those white things on the back are her wind generators. Interesting that they survived though, along with one of the overhanging two solar panels AFAICT. Can't tell if the gennies still have their blades, she put new stronger ones on at Cape Town after the old ones all broke.

Ummm...

[Ahnlaashock]

Sorry, missed petty ending up as pretty! At the risk of sounding petty!
Not much risk on the pretty end for me!

[sabray]

Originally Posted by Catcruiser

@Sabray: the comparison of xxuxx is not nuts whatsoever. The chances of this happening is far, far greater than dying while circumnavigating. So xxuxx: point well made.

Im wrong its so similar. Hey johnny before you take the car out tonight please remember the 3 epirbs and add a little extra weight to the floorboards so you dont flip over.
So the risks involved of solo sailing in the Indian Ocean are comparable to driving. Your saying its safer to sail the low 40's in the winter months then it is for me to drive home from work. 50% of under 18 drivers are not going to wreck their cars or abandon them on the highway.. Its not a good comparison my opinion.

Its like saying 80% of people who use a hair dryer in the shower without a gfi will get electrocuted so its better if they go sailing instead. okay thats nuts.