Abby Sunderland - The Debate

[TaoJones]

I think the fact that Zac Sunderland had his circumnavigation record taken by Mike Perham, whose well-funded effort put him aboard a vessel not unlike Abby's, was not lost on the Sunderlands, as well.

The age of the individuals when they departed on their voyages was, and is, irrelevant. It is their age when they complete the voyage that matters (to those who are into the whole "record" concept). Had Abby completed her voyage more than a few days before she turned 17, she would have beaten the mark established by Jessica Watson.

TaoJones

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Jimske

.

I didn't realize that Joshua Slocum lined up a book deal prior to his voyage. In fact, it was my understanding that most people did not even believe that he even took the trip. Anyone know what is true?

Jimske

Yes, you are correct. It was written in the same studio as the Apollo astronauts used to go to the moon.

[surfingminniwinni]

Teenage Driver Facts:
Deaths. Each Year over 5,000 teens ages 16 to 20 Die due to Fatal injuries caused Car accidents. About 400,000 drivers age 16 to 20 will be seriously injured.

Risks. The risk of being involved in a car accident the highest for drivers aged 16- to 19-year-olds than it is for any other age group. For each mile driven, teen drivers ages 16 to 19 are about four times more likely than other drivers to crash.

Stats. Teenagers are about 10 percent of the US Population but account for 12 percent all Fatal Car Crashes.

Costs. Drivers (both male and female) under age 24 account for 30% - $26 billion Dollars of the total costs of Car accidents in the US.

Male Versus Female. The car accident death rate for teen male drivers and passengers is more than one and a half times female teen driver (19.4 killed per 100,000 male drivers compared with 11.1 killed per 100,000 female drivers.

New Drivers. The risk of a Crash risk is much higher during the first year teenagers are able to drive.

Now these stats are from the USA.

If you guys are seriously worried about your teenagers, why do you let them drive?
Where is the media hysteria about 405,000 iresponsible parents.

[Ahnlaashock]

I kind of suspect that she was taught to engage her personal beacon if and when the boat beacon was activated. The family said several times in the news, that they were sure she was okay and on the boat because the boat beacon and her beacon were together. Is that improper procedure?

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Jimske

. . .how many of these children or even adults that attempt such a passage woud do so if they KNEW that help from CG, ships, foreign countries, etc. could not or would not be able to help them if they got in a fix? Of course we will never know. In the back of their minds must be the assurance that help will always be on the way! I am thinking that this fact must alleviate some of the concern.

Glad she is OK.
********************

I didn't realize that Joshua Slocum lined up a book deal prior to his voyage. In fact, it was my understanding that most people did not even believe that he even took the trip. Anyone know what is true?

Jimske

As I stated previously, Robin Graham did it, juri-rigged his vessel (because he had no other option) and survived to sail another day.

I'm not encouraging other youngsters to try this. I'm just saying, "Give her, her parents and her team a break".

This trip was well thought out and prepared for. Abby was OBVIOUSLY up to the task. ANYONE that does not recognize that is merely an inexperienced sailor themselves and have NO right to second guess these people.

As far as I can tell, Abby did not fail in this attempt.......it appears to be an equipment failure that I have seen happen time and time and time again with the most experienced, professional sailors in the world.

[slomotion]

Originally Posted by Jimske

I didn't realize that Joshua Slocum lined up a book deal prior to his voyage. In fact, it was my understanding that most people did not even believe that he even took the trip. Anyone know what is true?

Hmmm, I never heard anyone question whether Slocom actually circumnavigated. Sacrilege? It probably seemed quite unbelievable in the late 19th Century - it still kind of does. His pre-voyage agreement with his publisher is widely reported and I see no reason to doubt it. One way or another just about everyone who does this capitalizes with pre-voyage publicity and/or a book and/or movie. The 21st Century version of this is kind of over the top, but in principle, it is nothing new.

Now if you want crazy unbelievable, consider Vito Dumas: Starting from Buenos Aires he sailed around solo in a 31 foot ketch - so ill prepared that he had to stuff newspaper in his clothes for warmth in the Southern Ocean. He left early in the southern winter AND HE DID IT IN THE MIDDLE OF WW II. How do I know? Well, ..... he wrote a book.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Ahnlaashock

I kind of suspect that she was taught to engage her personal beacon if and when the boat beacon was activated. The family said several times in the news, that they were sure she was okay and on the boat because the boat beacon and her beacon were together. Is that improper procedure?

Yes....that is an improper procedure. The proper proceedure is to activate the vessels beacon and wait for help. This notifies the CG that the VESSEL is in danger but the sailor's life may not be.When both beacons are activated together, that would be a sign that the vessel is in danger and the sailors life is in danger. If help does not arrive, the personal beacon is activated when the situation becomes life threatening.

This accomplishes 2 things. It allows for the situation to settle down and give the sailor time to prepare for rescue or jeri-rig the boat. Once the second beacon is activated, that is a signal that the sailors life is in IMMINENT danger such as severe bleeding, incapacitated, boat cannot be saved/sinking etc. The life-raft beacon should only be used after getting into the life-raft.

What must be remembered is that these beacons are battery operated and have a life. If she's stuck out there fore a month and no one has found her, there must be a back-up.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Kanani

... Abby was OBVIOUSLY up to the task...

... ANYONE that does not recognize that is merely an inexperienced sailor themselves and have NO right to second guess these people...

Quite interesting to hear that failing at a task is a sign of being up to it.

Quite interesting to hear that not recognizing failed attempts is a sign of being an inexperienced sailor.

OBVIOUSLY ANYBODY can see the fallacies.

ROFL
barnie

[hummingway]

It seems one of the lessons experienced sailors like to share is that of respect for the sea. You let the sea dictate when you go and your course. To go against the wisdom that has been learned over millenia is to risk your life no matter your age. Slocum was as knowledgable as they come and he didn't try push the river. I think that setting records is a pretty good example of ignoring this wisdom at the peril of the sailor.

[barnakiel]

I say let´s wait and see why the EPIRB has been activated. If there was a genuine reason then there is not much to talk about.

But I strongly believe that all such attempts - this includes ocean races and all organized record attempts (Abby's, Jessica´s, etc) should be insured and all (I say ALL - and I mean it - also life saving costs) rescue operations costs should be covered by the insurance policy.

b.

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I say let´s wait and see why the EPIRB has been activated. If there was a genuine reason then there is not much to talk about.

But I strongly believe that all such attempts - this includes ocean races and all organized record attempts (Abby's, Jessica´s, etc) should be insured and all (I say ALL - and I mean it - also life saving costs) rescue operations costs should be covered by the insurance policy.

b.

Do you know of any insurers who would accept that risk? For that matter, are there any sailors who could afford the premium if such an insurer could be found?

TaoJones

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Kanani

At one point, Robin was dis-masted and took around 30-days to limp to the closest harbor. If it were not for modern technology, I'm convinced that Abby would have done the same.

Kanani, it must be really nice on your planet. First off, you do not need to over-analyze why she used both EPIRBs. I'll tell you why; it meant "Get me the F off this boat!" Second, although I love your "if not for modern tech." quote, I find it quite bizarre. If she thought she could be up to sailing to port with a jury rig, she wouldn't have hit the Please - rescue - me! button. She'd know what to do to prepare one. Third off, if her parents can afford a race boat, a "team" and all this wonderful modern equipment, not to mention their first kids circumnavigation, then I'm sure they can afford this rescue. If not, I was hoping her parents supporters might chip in...Are you up for it?

BTW, your Passport 45 is one good looking ketch!

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Kanani

This trip was well thought out and prepared for. Abby was OBVIOUSLY up to the task. ANYONE that does not recognize that is merely an inexperienced sailor themselves and have NO right to second guess these people.

Anybody alive has a right to their own opinions about any subject, even ones they don't have any clue about.

In the US and various other places they also have the right to disseminate and argue their opinions with a few limitations regarding libel and slander which I don't want to go into.

That doen't mean their opinions are valid but they do have the right to hold and discuss them.

A case in point. I have tried welding exactly once. I sucked at it. I would like to learn but that is a different storey. However as a welding inspector for the last 7yr I regularly point out problems in procedure and product to welders who have upwards of 30yr full time experience welding. Try telling me my opinions about a weld are invalid because I can't weld myself and I will point out where I have marked the specific problems on the piece or connection and I will cite specifications and code to support my findings and then maybe I will find your supervisor and discuss your attitude with him or her after which I will then hand you head back to you so you can find a surgeon to sew it back on.

You want to argue an opinion based on specifics about something, fine. You want to say somebody's not allowed to hold opinions because contradict yours, try again.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Anybody alive has a right to their own opinions about any subject, even ones they don't have any clue about.

In the US and various other places they also have the right to disseminate and argue their opinions with a few limitations regarding libel and slander which I don't want to go into.

That doen't mean their opinions are valid but they do have the right to hold and discuss them.

A case in point. I have tried welding exactly once. I sucked at it. I would like to learn but that is a different storey. However as a welding inspector for the last 7yr I regularly point out problems in procedure and product to welders who have upwards of 30yr full time experience welding. Try telling me my opinions about a weld are invalid because I can't weld myself and I will point out where I have marked the specific problems on the piece or connection and I will cite specifications and code to support my findings and then maybe I will find your supervisor and discuss your attitude with him or her after which I will then hand you head back to you so you can find a surgeon to sew it back on.

You want to argue an opinion based on specifics about something, fine. You want to say somebody's not allowed to hold opinions because contradict yours, try again.

Your reading skills about the same as your welding skills. No offense intended.

I didn't say a word about someone expressing their "Opinion". My statement was, "ANYONE that does not recognize that is merely an inexperienced sailor themselves and have NO right to second guess these people.".

I would say the same thing if someone judged your parenting skills on a subject that they know little about and are working on 3rd hand information.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Quite interesting to hear that failing at a task is a sign of being up to it.

Quite interesting to hear that not recognizing failed attempts is a sign of being an inexperienced sailor.

OBVIOUSLY ANYBODY can see the fallacies.

ROFL
barnie

Have you ever had a blow out on your car?...... Is that blow-out a failure of the driver?? In some cases, the answer would be yes, if the tires were lacking, preparation was poor or the driver was careless..this clearly was not the case here.

Yes.....I live in a world that very few that post on this forum have ever known. Therefore I would expect few to understand what really transpired here.

BTW......how many miles have you logged in the Southern Ocean? My guess would be....none.....

Abby has failed at nothing IMO. A lot of circumstances came together (none of which any of us know about....I have probably a better perspective than most here) to cause the entire trip to fall short of the ultimate goal. However, Abby has done what very few people on this planet have ever done and she did at 16-years-old.....simply amazing. Had her equipment not failed, there is little doubt that her goal would have been complete. An incomplete mission is not always a failure.