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Old 21-05-2014, 20:07   #31
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

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Originally Posted by dpddj View Post
we used to call vessels designed in such a way as seven decks and no bottom. Visually, it looks unstable, but depending upon hydrostatics, trim and stability calcs (if in fact they were adhered to) it could pass muster. Or not. Look at cruise ships - they look so ready to roll over but there is so much heavy equipment below decks....... The fact they were talking ballast so early on is indicative of a big OOPS.
This sort of customer driven design necessity reminds me of some delta wing fighter aircraft; the desire to 'have it all' necessitates designs that are dynamically unstable and require technologies and/or design tricks to maintain stability that at least on their face leave little room for error or failures.
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Old 21-05-2014, 20:18   #32
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

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Originally Posted by David M View Post

An inclining test is used to prove (or possibly disprove) the naval architects stability curves.

The Coast Guard does not do inclining tests, they witness them. Inclining tests are typically only required for vessels that carry passengers for hire which includes Subchapter T and larger commercial vessels. I have never heard of them witnessing an inclining test for a pleasure boat....but then perhaps this vessel was intended to carry passengers for hire?
Hi David
On most large pleasure yacht new builds they are usually built to a classification (ABS, Lloyds, Veritas etc..)

Class requires the "As Built" stability curves and as an Owners' Rep. I have witnessed many inclining tests.

Builders often try to sneak in the tests before all the soft furnishings have been added topsides... I don't allow it!

Not unusual for a few tons of lead balast to be added as weight control is never exact....especially with change orders.

Once the design curves are met or modified (usually because of waterline and/or performance compromises)..
..... There is another interesting sea trial stability test.

At 20,50,70% displacements and cruising speed ...the Tech reverses the stabilizers to induce a severe roll and they measure angles and G forces. (Wild time onboard as the ultimate shake down ))

In the build contract I always specified that one of those tests be done in heavy weather... so it was a good verification of how solid and sea kindly she felt in a storm.

The North Sea never let me down during the month set aside for seatrials.
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Old 21-05-2014, 20:39   #33
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

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The previous owners Rep blogs.... Includes stability report


Yacht Captain's Blog (Aaron Pufal)
Wow Mark.... Thanks for that...

Professionally very disappointing that he would go public and have such a limited legal understanding of the Builder/Client protocols.

Reading between the lines I see a big ego captain experimenting with design changes and putting his Owner/employer's investment at risk.

The fact that he brags about it will be easy fodder for the build insurers lawyers.

Bloody Amateurs!
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Old 21-05-2014, 23:15   #34
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

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Wow Mark.... Thanks for that...

Professionally very disappointing that he would go public and have such a limited legal understanding of the Builder/Client protocols.

Reading between the lines I see a big ego captain experimenting with design changes and putting his Owner/employer's investment at risk.

The fact that he brags about it will be easy fodder for the build insurers lawyers.

Bloody Amateurs!
Glad to see someone comment on the impropriety of him disclosing that report. As to ego, should have read his blog yesterday when he was claiming unlimited captain. Apparently someone encouraged him to remove his credentials. Could it possibly be there were exaggerated?

Ultimately I see him mostly as irrelevant though. He wasn't a naval architect and my understanding that the only one involved was internal to the builder. Ultimately the boat rolled and sunk and whether fault of the boat or dollies it was within the responsibility of the builder. If Northern was taking build, design and architectural instructions from this captain, then that wasn't defensible and I doubt they were in fact of the captain's bravado. But he lost me when he disclosed that document. Now, had he disclosed it in private as part of the negotiation and under order to do so, that's different.

This is a case of one or more huge mistakes on the part of a builder, a builder struggling to remain alive. Now the closing can't reasonably be blamed on some catastrophic accident out of their control. First it was in their control. Second were they not insured? Less than one day and they announce that's it? That shows a problem far beyond this incident. But consistent with Northern's history of the last several years.

Part of what I find most amazing too was the boat was tilted more than normal. They noticed and stopped. Then they continued? Why so desperate to launch at that moment?

I feel deeply for the employees and for the boat buyers who are now sitting with millions paid and no boat to show for it. I believe four boats in that situation.
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Old 22-05-2014, 01:31   #35
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

BandB interesting points and I was not aware that the Builder has such a poor track record.

Depending on the contractual definition of "Owners Representative" and whether the NA responsibilities were in house or sub contracted to Owner.... this captain's actions are NOT irrelevant.

He made decisions on the Owner's behalf.

I expect a confidentiality and non disclosure agreement would have been part of the builder contract... So anticipate lawyers will shut his blog down soon.

Whenever I read about a Florida Captain teaming up with a Florida Broker... I suspect that Client's needs come after career building.

The Fact that the Owner fired him just a few months before launch.... tells me lots.
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Old 22-05-2014, 01:48   #36
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

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This is a case of one or more huge mistakes on the part of a builder, a builder struggling to remain alive.
IN THE BUSSINESS WE CALL THEM KAMIKAZE YARDS

Second were they not insured? Less than one day and they announce that's it? That shows a problem far beyond this incident. But consistent with Northern's history of the last several years.

AMAZING IF TRUE AND SO NAIVE ON THE PART OF THOSE ADVISING THE OWNER

Part of what I find most amazing too was the boat was tilted more than normal. They noticed and stopped. Then they continued? Why so desperate to launch at that moment?

I SUSPECT THAT HAD GONE PAST THE POINT OF NO RETURN WITH THE LARGE PNW TIDE ON THE EBB

I feel deeply for the employees and for the boat buyers who are now sitting with millions paid and no boat to show for it. I believe four boats in that situation. .
I FEEL MOSTLY FOR THE BUYERS AS I AM SURE THE WORKERS GOT PAID .. except for pending paycheck
Sorry for the CAPS as I cannot inject italics with my phone
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Old 22-05-2014, 01:52   #37
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

So did builder close under Chapter 7 or 11?
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Old 22-05-2014, 07:08   #38
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

I find it interesting that in Washington State marijuana use is legal. Just sayin.
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Old 22-05-2014, 07:09   #39
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

Dude, like...sorry 'bout that.
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Old 22-05-2014, 07:13   #40
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

Should be christened "Vasa"...

To soon?
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Old 22-05-2014, 08:09   #41
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

Here is how a ship should be transported and launched.
Nordhavn 63
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Old 22-05-2014, 08:16   #42
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

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Well, I don't think they used an outside marine architect. They used a designer a bit. And the buyer's captain had lots of ideas and input but he was fired in December. Yesterday's event just led them to do what was probably already inevitable. They've been in turmoil off and on for years. This won't be the first bankruptcy for Northern, although a different legal entity this time. You can mark these up as losers: Northern, Insurer, Buyer, Buyers of other boats in construction, employees, vendors. Winners: Lawyers. Really sad, not for the principles as they will be fine, but for those without jobs and those due money and those who have invested in boats they don't have.
Chances are the owner already had Insurance as did the company. The people who paid deposits?...probably not. They might get back a fraction of their lose after a judge orders the sell of the assets. Still and as usual, the workers who make it happen, lose.

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ballast might make it float for about another 10 seconds, but its turtle enabled to the core.
I didn't know that you were a naval architect.

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The Fact that the Owner fired him just a few months before launch.... tells me lots.
I agree but if he was let go do to monkeying around with the numbers, you would think that would prompt someone to check things.
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Old 22-05-2014, 08:16   #43
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

Just imagine all the fancy machinery that was ruined. Hords of cash just in electronics. Anyone care to hazard a guess how long that thing will sit there till the mess is resolved? I bet it will be there when I pass through this summer.
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Old 22-05-2014, 08:21   #44
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

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So did builder close under Chapter 7 or 11?
Haven't seen anything on a filing yet. Last time it was a 7 and from just shutting the doors as they did sounds like it will be a 7 again. I'm sure the timing of the filing is just in the hands of the lawyers. Could be waiting for the salvage bill.
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Old 22-05-2014, 08:25   #45
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Re: 85-Foot Motor Yacht Sinks at Launch

if he has not finished paying for it he might still get it and at a large reduced rate. it didnt look compleatly under. Clean it rewire electronics and put it back in the water. any one want to go for a ride..
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