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Old 11-12-2012, 07:02   #91
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
skipmac, I was referring to the Pacific Cup. I thought it was called PAC but I guess its referred to as Trans Pac.
Ah so. The Trans Pac, that I've heard of. Quite likely the insider racing type guys may call it "The PAC" but I wouldn't know. The closest I've ever been to a sailboat race was when I watched the America's Cup on TV.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:12   #92
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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Lagoon4us - the hypothetical part is the "rub" in this case. It is easy for people to hypothesize about what others could have done and what sailing theory states can be done when losing steerage. I've trained using sail balance with the wheel locked on my boats and when in 15-20 knots of gusty winds with 2 meter swells (i.e. normal offshore conditions) self-steering is possible but difficult and the boat points generally in the right direction with swings of 30-40 degrees in each direction. With a rudder the boat becomes unsteerable but even there one could jury-rig an interior door with a spi pole to makeshift a rudder - except in a bigger boat the forces become very, very high. But even there all it takes is a wave higher than half the LWL to come from the side just as the boat is in a 30 degree swing phase and suddenly you roll. I'm sorry if I over-reacted, but I know that incredible feeling of helplessness when alone at sea with severe problems like this and when people who haven't had that happen state that a skipper should have been able to steer the boat (because they read it in a textbook) it irks me.
Just as an aside - this happened to me in a Jeanneau 43. Using the prop just turned the boat in wide 360s. I tried using the 10hp dinghy but in ocean waves that didn't work. I tried dragging all the lines I had with buckets and other drag devices behind me and then used the engine - that just turned bigger circles. If I had been fully offshore I would have tried a door and pole but I managed to contact shore to get a boat to tow - so I didn't master the situation. The tow was going to be cheaper than replacing cabinetry and all that I had to do was rock and roll for 24 hours; but anyone who has had this happen far offshore and improvised to successfully avert disaster deserves kudos and respect.
When I had only read the description by the sailors involved and had not read all the posts here, I thought these guys did a really good job of proper seamanship. They lost a rudder and took on significant water. They stabilzed the situation. They weighed their options and picked a good choice to navigate. They then spent multiple days controlling the boat in the general right direction in trying conditions. When they got close to the crunchy islands they asked for a tow in for the last portion. They also saved the boat and had no crew injuries. Seems like a pretty good seamanship to me. If you asked the skipper, I'm sure he could tell things they could have done better, but I don't buy the macho we could have handled this easily posts.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:16   #93
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
A very simple cassette rudder can be seen here: First 20 / First / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU

Just a light (but rigid) alloy frame where the foil can be lowered or removed. Easy to build and probably deployable in nearly any weather.

I think in emergency kits the foil can be actually reused as a (shelf?) or something.

b.
Found a web site with some good photos of a DIY cassette rudder.

emergency rudder
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:29   #94
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

Don't think the discussion is having a go at the guys at all, i see the discussion more about HOW anyone can helm a disabled boat, there's no textbook like experience and these people just got a huge lesson and came through.

The rest here is hypothetical.

Cheers.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:43   #95
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You need a cassette or some kind of track arrangement to mount a spare rudder with seas running. Just pins won't work.

People do long crossings without a spare rudder? Or at least some tested plan? Five spare GPS units wrapped in foil but no spare rudder? Wierd.

As for money:. I think a box of US$100 bills is the easy way out of all tough spots. Cards just don't have the reliability factor. And too many headaches for the simple life. Sorry, Euros or other currencies are not yet highly regarded in the odd places cruisers end up.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:52   #96
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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So what do you get for the entry fee? No one seems to have an answer.
It is the choice to travel as a "family" or "single".
For the yachts, it is getting attention and to have the choice to select crew-members because many people like to join the race. And these people pay quite some money: Between 2500 and 5000 € for the trip.
In that case, you make money.
It is like a charter.
For example, the Lady Ann now participating has 6 crewmember who payed 3000 € each + expenses.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:53   #97
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I'd have to say I've been involved in two rudder issues. Both luckily enough were resolved. One seriously could have threatened the boat.

(1). It is extremely hard in a big swell Atlantic to work on any rudder in my experience. The risk of getting clobbered by the boat is high. Fatigue also sets in very quickly. Also you need a good confident swimmer , the best I've seen were divers

(2) the pole and cabinet door is ( a) very difficult to make work(b) very difficult to keep working ( c) is very ineffective one large boat.

It's worth noting the incident of the Hunter 50 in a previous ARC that lost the rudder , yet despite the workshop and on board expertise of the tall ship Tenacious she wasn't saved.

(3) unless the boat is designed to carry an emergency , and a good one to boot , its difficult doing a lash up.

One way or the other he wasn't crossing the Atlantic and he got to the verdes which is all you could have done in the circumstances even with a successful jury rig. The boat was saved, end of story

(4) people react differently, different skills etc.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:00   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddle
You need a cassette or some kind of track arrangement to mount a spare rudder with seas running. Just pins won't work.

People do long crossings without a spare rudder? Or at least some tested plan? Five spare GPS units wrapped in foil but no spare rudder? Wierd.

As for money:. I think a box of US$100 bills is the easy way out of all tough spots. Cards just don't have the reliability factor. And too many headaches for the simple life. Sorry, Euros or other currencies are not yet highly regarded in the odd places cruisers end up.
No absolutely not, credit cards are much much more useful then cash. There are too many things that cost too much for cash anymore. Not to mention buying airline tickets or hiring a car or even paying for a hotel room where cash is nearly useless. Obviously you need some cash, but your reserve is better kept as a credit card. And I agree with FoolishSailor , preferably one with a big limit and lots of headroom.

I'm also afraid the " mighty dollar" also isn't quite as useful as it once was, unfortunately. Swiss francs maybe , or bullion perhaps.

Dave
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:02   #99
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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Originally Posted by aventuraplus View Post
It is the choice to travel as a "family" or "single".
For the yachts, it is getting attention and to have the choice to select crew-members because many people like to join the race. And these people pay quite some money: Between 2500 and 5000 € for the trip.
In that case, you make money.
It is like a charter.
For example, the Lady Ann now participating has 6 crewmember who payed 3000 € each + expenses.
all totally illegal! but a nice little tax free earner!,
another aspect of the arc is the increase in prices they leave in their wake for other less fortunate independent cruisers,whom now have to deal with authoraties suspecting them of chartering illegally if they have a few crew onboard
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:43   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
One way or the other he wasn't crossing the Atlantic and he got to the verdes which is all you could have done in the circumstances even with a successful jury rig. The boat was saved, end of story.
This is the crux of it. If I saw the skipper in the pub I would buy him a round, he performed well I difficult circumstances.

Members shouldn't get their panties in a twist when we dissect a given event and offer our perspectives of how it could have been handled differently, it is not ego or macho it is a learning process which illustrates possible better solutions which are then further dissected as valid or unrealistic. It is one of the reasons why this forum is such a great tool.

The only real criticism I do have is that the skipper only kept his boat due to the incredible selflessness of the harbour master. If she hadn't intervened he would have had to pop his EPIRB to force an action and likely would have lost his boat in the process. Being caught in this position is never nice for any skipper and the odds are not good that someone will help like she did. T be caught out for something so simple as an unknown credit li,it on a card seems a bit foolish considering all the other likely serious preparation that took place.

It is the details and the cascading events that spawn from a tiny detail that typically bring ruin.

Regarding repair at sea. Tis is a huge question that one has to answer when confronted. I have been under a boat in 2 meter seas and it is frightening and dangerous, you can easily escalate a difficult problem to a life threaten one with a head injury. The stern of the boat is moving very dangerously.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:02   #101
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

there is always more then one "side" of a event.

Google Translate

hope this works.

Looks like ARC did there part.

and that the first stories sendt out , did not tell the full story.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:14   #102
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

Yargh, sailors in panties. Twisted or not, how did Monty Python ever miss out on that image in favor of "OK Lumberjack" ?
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:30   #103
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No absolutely not, credit cards are much much more useful then cash.

I'm also afraid the " mighty dollar" also isn't quite as useful as it once was, unfortunately. Swiss francs maybe , or bullion perhaps.
In the context of this thread: What are the chances that in odd parts of the world, maybe on the high seas, that you can pay for an expensive tow with a credit card? Fuel from a fisherman with gold bullion? Here in the PI, and throughout the Pacific islands, Latin America, Asia, ATM machines and banks that do fancy CC transactions are few. The dollar is what you want to have. Swiss francs will get you a funny look. Bullion? Are you cruising Lake Geneva?

Certainly some locations may favor the Euro or NZ or AU, but the currency that works nearly everywhere is still the dollar. I thought I had a big box of US$100s until I saw the stash a super yacht had.

Just bought a $300 cellphone in Manila. In a glossy mall outlet. They wouldn't take my US Visa CC. Local Visa okay. Pesos ok. Dollar ok. Didn't ask about Swiss francs or bullion, heh.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:58   #104
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Not sure the tow would have come out with only a promise of "cash on delivery" - this case would require credit. Nevertheless i always keep cash onboard as well.
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:47   #105
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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Just bought a $300 cellphone in Manila. In a glossy mall outlet. They wouldn't take my US Visa CC. Local Visa okay. Pesos ok. Dollar ok. Didn't ask about Swiss francs or bullion, heh.

RMB/CNY, Hmm... newspaper and calculator and then OK.

Or just front up any of the multitude of pawnshops or moneylenders who also do money changing.

Was in Cebu in Feb this year to enjoy the tropical warmth and escape from the dank Chinese cold, nice place, hot girls I'd enjoy a return trip to the philippines sometime.


Back on the topic.

It doesn't really matter what currency you have in your account these days, with modern banks interconnectedness international funds transfer and monetary conversion shouldn't be a problem. If they had Email (which according to the story they did) a simple email to a contact back home who has a limited power of financial attorney would mean a quick trip to the bank and the tow boat owner can check the deposit in hours.


It's not like the 1700s when you carried gold because Western Union hadn't yet been invented.
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