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Old 09-12-2012, 10:37   #61
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

On topic--it sounds from the blog that the boat was seriously under-maintained, but it was steel with a skeg hung rudder--the very type that the blue-water capable guys on this forum cream their jeans over.

Off topic--my American Express card has saved my bacon several times when the debit card banks blocked me. Once in Sydney, where I tried to buy batteries at Battery World a 'known high-fraud site'. That took me 2 days and 6 hours of collect calls to sort out. Another time I was blocked in Gibraltar because I had told the bank I would be in Europe and the idiots thought Gibraltar was somewhere else.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:47   #62
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

I recall a sailor telling the bar (not a court of law type) that he was "off the grid." Later he was telling a story that had him renting a car. As was rudely pointed out, not without a current dr lic, ins, and a credit card he wasn't.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:42   #63
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
but it was steel with a skeg hung rudder--the very type that the blue-water capable guys on this forum cream their jeans over.
NOT! Guess I need more to get me that excited now days.


I have always wondered (only a little) how many of the spade rudder problems were on boats with shallow draft where the rudder sticks down lower than the keel, compared to the deep draft verisions the same boat.

On my last boat the rudder went aground first and I could tell it had done so more than once!
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:34   #64
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

don, I'm with you on that. Earlier this year I had a months-long running battle with the "extended warranty" providers at a major credit card company. Finally got it down and a couple of weeks later they called for a customer service survey. I told htem flat out, I'd never use their card again if I wanted that benefit, I'd stick with American Express, where I made one phone call, zero paperwork, and they did all the rest internally and made my life easy. Yes, they usually charge something for the card, but there are a variety of cards and benefits and price plans and all of them are staffed by folks who are trained to provide customer service, real service.

So did I misread the blog quote, or did they do nothing to try rigging a steering board, an emergency rudder, some type of steerage besides their sails? Did I miss the memo calling this tactic obsolete and useless these days?

ARC and paying money: I don't know what the ARC contract calls for these days, but some folks go to a bar and spend $10-20 for a shot when they can buy a bottle and invite their friends home for the price of two or three rounds. Some folks like to pay for company, entertainment, concierge services. No harm in that, the concierge needs to eat too. The only question is, if these folks can afford boats and fees, shouldn't they read the contract before handing their money over?

From the blog translation it appears that question will go to the courts, if the ARC and the insurer didn't do as they contracted.
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Old 09-12-2012, 21:35   #65
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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The credit limit is not the problem. For reasons of fraud protection banks can have reduced authorisation amount on the cards, this especially applies to transactions made outside of the country or even region. It depends on the banks policy. In this case, the transaction was attempted outside of the EU where the card is not even present.

Most people don't know about this until they try to make a purchase that gets declined for this reason.
For European cards the issue is the chip. There has been a recent spate of card skimming in Europe, and those gangs always try to use the date they lifted of the magnetic strip somewhere outside of Europe. So most European banks now have disabled transactions that use the magnetic strip outside of Europe.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:31   #66
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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2. If you cant use the rudder to steer and you cant make it straight then you need to remove it. The rudder issues could be resolved by removing the rudder. Either dive and tie it and the drop it or just drop the damn thing and buy another. Then create a steering solution. You have less than 400 miles, it's not an ocean.
foolishsailor

This is real armchair sailing, Seriously have you ever tried diving under a boat in Atlantic swells or rough motion. As to dropping the rudder, sure thats easy - NOT, not to mention the big hole and the distinct lack of a rudder.

These things are technically resolvable, but they are difficult.

Dave
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:34   #67
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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2. If you cant use the rudder to steer and you cant make it straight then you need to remove it. The rudder issues could be resolved by removing the rudder. Either dive and tie it and the drop it or just drop the damn thing and buy another. Then create a steering solution. You have less than 400 miles, it's not an ocean.
No the issue is called "Liability shift". when Chip and PIN was introduced it funnily coincided with a significant change in liability. If your card is used fraudulently by way of a PIN entry, then the liability is held by the card HOLDER. If the stripe is used the liability remains with the Card ISSUER. ( Overnight they fixed the card fraud issue ). Hence the EMV consortium have tightened rules on "card not present" transactions . Nothing that cant be sorted with a telephone call though.

Dave
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:58   #68
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

foolishsailor

This is real armchair sailing, Seriously have you ever tried diving under a boat in Atlantic swells or rough motion. As to dropping the rudder, sure thats easy - NOT, not to mention the big hole and the distinct lack of a rudder.

These things are technically resolvable, but they are difficult.

Dave
Yes i have, more than once and at night as well. Dealing with wrapped net lines, jammed rudder, clogged intakes, etc...

Never had to drop a rudder, but if the rudder is unable to be straightened there are not many options.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:18   #69
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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Yes i have, more than once and at night as well. Dealing with wrapped net lines, jammed rudder, clogged intakes, etc...

Never had to drop a rudder, but if the rudder is unable to be straightened there are not many options.
Same here. Have gone under the boat to clear lines off the prop at sea but so far in reasonably calm conditions 2-3' waves. However, based on my experience doing some deep wreck dives off the FL coast; seas running 6-8' and very choppy, off and back onto the boat wearing about 100 lbs of gear I think it would be possible, with care, to work on the rudder in those conditions especially with a lot less gear on my back. Much more than that I don't know.

Reading this thread has made me go back and think more about emergency rudder options. Since my boat has an almost vertical transom I think it would be easy to mount a couple of gudgeons and carry a spare rudder with matching pintles ready to hook up. Any other ideas or simpler solutions?
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:36   #70
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

If this is the steering mechanism it doesn't look well maintained :-
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:47   #71
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

Quote:
Reading this thread has made me go back and think more about emergency rudder options.
I like the cassette type spare rudder. Trying to attach a spade rudder into gudgeons in a rough sea could be quite difficult. Slipping the rudder into a cassette would be much easier and you could even make the cassette slip in to gudgeons on the stern. There should be a write up on this on the PAC web site.

Note: I call it cassette type but it has been quite a few years since I looked at the information. It might be called something else.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:51   #72
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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If this is the steering mechanism it doesn't look well maintained :-
Or is that the mechanism holding the plug in place?

The rudder apparently slipped right out of the boat. Are you sure it was skeg mounted?
My translation is pretty difficult to make sense of in some areas.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:57   #73
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

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Cheechako.
It has to be a design weakness or a collision to fail otherwise no problems, vulnerable yes BUT there are other ways of steering for f'sake!
My rudder broke off at the hull join at sea. Steering a boat withough a working rudder might be theoretically possible and can be trained by locking the wheel and balancing the sails in calm conditions; but in reality a fin-keeler with no rudder is unsteerable and nothing is easy in big oceans swells and strong wind. Many experienced skippers (Vendee Globe skippers, ones with multiple circumnavigations and decades of experience) with big crews have been forced to abandon ship due to inop rudders.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:17   #74
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

Having an inoperable rudder and having no rudder at all are very different situations. In the first case if the rudder is stuck straight ahead, one may be able to steer by alternative means. If there is no rudder, a fin keel boat is essentially out of control and steering becomes nearly impossible.

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Old 10-12-2012, 12:31   #75
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Re: 3 ARC boats divert to Cape Verde with damage/injuries

As i said there are other ways, yeas depends on conditions, yes depends on type of rudder arrangement, all is hypothetical.

Vendee contestants are intrepid sailors.

Drag on one side can help, bow thrusters, prop walk there's many possibilities albeit hypothetical.......
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