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Old 18-11-2010, 05:49   #106
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Drop the spinnaker and pop it below... far below in the deepest bilge. Otherwise it will act like a drogue.

Ketches? Boats have been designed very diufferently in the last 40 odd years that may be more viable for cruising, anyways thats for a different thread.

Storm tactics use 3 basic methods (and a few 'other' ones, like Boatmans lying ahull, which I don't recommend in most boats) heaving to, and using a parachute anchor (NOT a drogue), and using a drogue to depower the boat.

Lin and Larry Pardy have some excellent stuff on heaving to in the modern sense.
Parachute anchors can be read about in searches on this forum and by looking at their websites.

some books on heavy weather sialing seem to be using older ideas that I don't tend to agree with. More betterer imho to look at modern foilks who play in high latitudes like Evans Starzinger. Look up his posts on those subjects and his website: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/members/estarzinger-27507.html
http://www.bethandevans.com/

And Dave Maxingout has a great read on drogues
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...gout-4626.html

I have been lucky to keep away from most bad weather




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Old 18-11-2010, 06:09   #107
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Mark.... there comes a time when any sail on the stick becomes a greater liability than an asset and its better to be a bamboo than a tree....
I don't like drogues in severe weather.... causes more swamping effects than the freedom of being lifted and pushed till the waves passes under...
I'd rather the the occasional 'late breaker' smacking me once in a while than repeated green water over the boat...
Sure its noisey and uncomfortable... but so's anything F8+... just wedge into your bunk with a flask, biccy's n a good book....
Recommend Pampers 'No Leak Nappies'.... and ride it out...
This is for open waters only..... if inshore... Bend over and kiss yer Ass Ta Ta....
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Old 18-11-2010, 07:24   #108
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I haven't actually tried it, but in 40 knots I think my boat could hove to without sails. Duffrunt then lying ahull which is lying beam to the seas.
One of these days (well, I hope not, actually) I will give it a try.

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Old 18-11-2010, 07:39   #109
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I hope newer folks who are reading this thread are working out why sailors always say they want sea room. In a storm get sea room. A lee shore, as we see here is no place for a boat of any size. NO MATTER HOW SICK YOU ARE.
Well, there's one thing Mark and I can agree on. Actually, I can think of a few other things that don't involve electronics.
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Old 18-11-2010, 07:43   #110
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Being a beginner sailor, I was wondering about what you said just the other day. If I'm in the ocean and a storm comes though unexpected, why can't one just stop, put out a drogue or some other kind of anchor and just let the storm pass.
Drogue and sea anchor are two different things (although than can look similar). A drogue is trailed astern in following seas to reduce surfing and improve directionality. A sea anchor is generally larger, deployed off the bow and used as an assist in heaving to.
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Old 18-11-2010, 07:49   #111
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Mark.... there comes a time when any sail on the stick becomes a greater liability than an asset and its better to be a bamboo than a tree....
I don't like drogues in severe weather.... causes more swamping effects than the freedom of being lifted and pushed till the waves passes under...
I'd rather the the occasional 'late breaker' smacking me once in a while than repeated green water over the boat...
Sure its noisey and uncomfortable... but so's anything F8+... just wedge into your bunk with a flask, biccy's n a good book....
Recommend Pampers 'No Leak Nappies'.... and ride it out...
This is for open waters only..... if inshore... Bend over and kiss yer Ass Ta Ta....
That's interesting. The single time I used a drogue, it was hard to tell whether it increased the frequency of being pooped. It didn't happen before the drogue, but then conditions deteriorated after the drogue was deployed - so hard to tell. Anyway, it was one of the concerns discussed with my crewmate before making the decision to "go for it."

When that happened, I didn't have a sea anchor nor had I read the Pardeys' book. Next time I might do things differently, but I hope there isn't a next time.
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Old 18-11-2010, 09:07   #112
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I prefer a drogue to a sea anchor, but regardless of which of those passive methods is used they both ensure that either the bow or stern is presented to breaking waves. Green water on deck or getting pooped (with closed hatches) will not sink or roll a well-found Category "A" boat. A breaking wave of about 50% or more of the boat's LWL will capsize any sailboat no matter how it is constructed. Non-breaking waves just makes life miserable.
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Old 18-11-2010, 09:16   #113
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Wow, it is interesting to see the speculation on what people will do in this situation. Having sailed the reverse course of the C1500 in April I can attest to the potential nastiness of storms in this area. One can not underestimate the nastiness of the waves as storms pile up water against eddies coming off the gulfstream. It is not the height of the waves but the short wave length period, steepness and variability of angle. In a 55 foot, well found pilothouse, we got beat up physically. We were 3 grown men in reasonable shape and not suffering from seasickness. I vividly remember taking 30 minutes to make a peanut butter/jelly sandwich and being too tired to make another one. As far as rest, it was nearly impossible. Lee cloths didn't work since you would go air born every few minutes as the boat dropped off the back side of a wave. Fortunately we didn't have to go into the cockpit since we could use the autopilot to steer from the pilothouse. I still recall how blue the water was as a 25 foot breaking wave broke over the pilothouse for the first time. I can't imagine heaving to in these conditions as the wave action would have rolled us in short order.

My heart goes out the crew of Rule 62. You can't imagine how tired they must have been which inevitably clouded the skippers judgment. When embarking on an offshore trip not only the boat but the crew needs to be well found and ready.

PS-Boat I sailed on during the return trip was a multiple time entrant in the C1500. 55 feet, aluminum pilothouse with a 53 foot waterline. Keel was hydraulically lifted with a down draft of 10.5 feet with a lead bulb. Construction included crash bulkhead, ring frames and two longitudinal stringers. Multiple fuel tanks and a tank minder with a capacity of 240 gallons. Cruise speed under power was 10 knots. Boat was incredibly strong and fast. PHRF=30.
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Old 18-11-2010, 11:19   #114
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I vividly remember taking 30 minutes to make a peanut butter/jelly sandwich and being too tired to make another one.

I can't imagine heaving to in these conditions as the wave action would have rolled us in short order.
I don't want to take the thread off topic into a heavy weather discussion . . . but:

#1 it sounds to me like you would have benefited enormously from slowing your boat down and taking a bit of a rest. You would not be flying off your bunks if you slowed down (forreached) to say 3kts for a 24hr time-out. Perhaps you were on a delivery schedule and could not slow down; but fatigue management is an essential part of seamanship and having a crew that can barely make a PJ sandwich means you don't have any reserve/margin if something bad happens.

#2 boats properly hove-to or forereaching are not typically 'rolled in short order'. It's a quite well proven and safe tactic. Boat quite successfully forereached right thru the worst of the '98 sydney to hobart storm - which had some of the nastiest waves imaginable.
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Old 18-11-2010, 12:00   #115
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I haven't read every post in this thread, but I just wanted to add that the tragedy of Rule 62 once again points out how dangerous those Bahamian cuts can be. I once sat in Little Harbor for most of a week waiting for a rage to die down. Huge breakers were rolling right across those cuts and well onto the banks, making it impossible to leave the harbor or even pass up and down on the banks. I can understand how sickness and fatigue can cloud judgment (I have been there), but those cuts are deadly in strong onshore conditions. And, there are times when you can be surprised when some large swells are rolling in from a distant storm, even if the local conditions are benign. Always worth it to call around on the VHF radio if you are in any doubt as to the conditions.
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Old 18-11-2010, 12:02   #116
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Exclamation

Being a newbie sailor, I was a little confused by the term "lee shore" but Wikipedia has a great web page on it. I found this item of interest with the great sailor calling a lee shore the "great whore" because it attracts sailors often to their doom during storms. The rest is from the lee shore article:

For ocean going vessels during a storm, a lee shore is treacherous because it slowly forces the boat toward the shore, where it will beach or break up. For this reason Bernard Moitessier, the great ocean sailor, called the coastline "the great whore"; it attracts sailors during a storm but is in fact highly dangerous. In shallow coastal water maneuver is impaired, waves may become steeper, and objects may be obscured.
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Old 18-11-2010, 12:25   #117
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Mark.... there comes a time when any sail on the stick becomes a greater liability than an asset and its better to be a bamboo than a tree....
I don't like drogues in severe weather.... causes more swamping effects than the freedom of being lifted and pushed till the waves passes under...
I'd rather the the occasional 'late breaker' smacking me once in a while than repeated green water over the boat...
Sure its noisey and uncomfortable... but so's anything F8+... just wedge into your bunk with a flask, biccy's n a good book....
Recommend Pampers 'No Leak Nappies'.... and ride it out...
This is for open waters only..... if inshore... Bend over and kiss yer Ass Ta Ta....
Ok, you had me all the way up to "biccy's". What the heck is that?

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Old 18-11-2010, 12:39   #118
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+1,000 on heaving too. Do it all the time on my boat. Amazing what it does for sea state and motion. The slick created really calms things.

Another thing I do when going offshore regardless of forcast is take Bonine. I dont get seasick (never say never) but it makes sure I dont and it also helps me sleep. Im amazed at all the cases of seasickness when there are so many over the counter and prescription remedies. Maybe they just dont work for everone but my gosh with a forcast of northerly breeze, 30' seas, and the gulfstream effects why take any chances on getting seasick?

But yes heaving too with storm sails, then with a parachute anchor if conditions warrant. Pardeys have a very good video on Storm Tactics and INHO any attempting a 1500 mile trip like this one would be well served to have practiced these methods in calm conditons before heading out.

Sure lots of monday morning QBing going on in my post and many others but hopefully others will heed this often sited advice.
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Old 18-11-2010, 13:02   #119
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Ok, you had me all the way up to "biccy's". What the heck is that?

Just guessing but based on slang from my British friends I would guess biccy = biscuits, aka crackers or cookies.
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Old 18-11-2010, 16:47   #120
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Hey everyone. I live in Atlanta and many of my friends personally know Laura Zekoll and I have been praying and trying to follow the story. Are there any more updates? Are the search team still active?

Thanks.
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