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Old 17-11-2010, 12:04   #91
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min crew size?

Is there a minimum number of crew for a boat entered in Carib1500? I think that Rule 62 had just 4 crew. That seems really short handed for a 1500 mile race. I race on Ches Bay in Governors Cup (overnight race of 75 miles ) and like to have 6 crew on our 30 ft boat. Kevin
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Old 17-11-2010, 12:05   #92
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It's not like a real race. A crew of four is quite adequate.
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Old 17-11-2010, 12:15   #93
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Evans has it exactly right, i.e., that "fatigue and seasickness are integral parts of passage making". Offshore passagemakers need to PLAN for these eventualities.

Anyone with passage experience in this area would know that the forecasts (not "plan") for 30' seas and strong winds from the northerly quadrant blowing over several days would make for virtual hell in the Gulf Stream. Moreover, even out of the Stream, seas would be rough. This would be very hard on gear and, especially, on crew.

If you haven't been there, you might still understand this intellectually. Sometimes, though, that's not enough as the reality can be much worse than imagined.

The gentle art of 'heaving to' on the offshore tack is one which should be practiced BEFORE it is needed. This builds confidence and knowledge that: (1) the boat's motion will be much more comfortable than slogging on; (2) once done, the technique allows the crew to get much needed rest and to reassess things; and (3) the boat does, in fact, have "brakes" and can be safely stopped offshore in deep water. I've done it many times in moderate conditions and once in 45 knot winds and 20' seas. It's like a miracle cure.

We don't know the conditions aboard Rule 62 except from very sketchy information. They must have been hellish before and, especially, after being swamped while approaching North Cut Channel on a dark and stormy night. Perhaps we'll eventually get a more complete understanding when the Captain and/or crew tell their stories.

Hindsight is closer to 20-20 vision, of course, but one hopes that the organizers will in the future include a briefing on the dangers of entering inlets and channels along the East Coast and the Bahamas in any but the most favorable conditions, emphasizing that it doesn't take much bad weather to render many such channels impassable. In recent memory, not one but two very experienced professional captains of BIG sportfish boats have been swamped and lost their lives trying to run East Coast inlets in daylight in heavy weather. Rage conditions in the Bahamas are well-known, as are the life-threatening dangers attendant to them.

Bill
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Old 17-11-2010, 13:05   #94
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Having sailed the Hatteras and Lookout areas out to 600 miles there and back in NW f7's and over I'm well aware how bad it can be out there... also fatigue can badly affect one's judgements... I had a bulkhead punched out just Nth of Bermuda in a 3 night series of gales... NW - N - NE...
I felt Bermuda was not an option in the conditions and turned back for Beaufort, NC... luckily the NE went N and held.. unluckily the Wheel Pilot failed and I had to hand steer the whole way back... the wind never belowF6... the waves in the Stream were not nice... high and breaking... it took 2 weeks to cover, 12hrs on 12hrs off, and when I got to Cape Lookout and the calmer water my eyes started to see what my shattered body and mind wanted to see... and I nearly ran up the shallow channel on the Northern side of the Inlet..
Realising my error just in time I hit hard to Port just as she bumped bottom and managed to bump my way out and into safer water....
I was... fortunately, going into a sheltered entrance with no reefs/few hazards..
I cannot imagine what a Rage must be like.... the nearest being the Channel Isles in Spring flood tide with a sustained NE'ly F9+..... for Rule 62 it must have been a scene from hell
I for one have every sympathy for both skipper and crew... even more I hope Laura is found alive by some miracle... stranger things have happened.
But... like everyone else I'm on the edge of my seat for the findings of the Inquiry
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Old 17-11-2010, 13:41   #95
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Originally Posted by PamlicoTraveler View Post
Hannah, Your Whitby is a full keel high displacement boat as is the OutIsland 41.

I wouldn't personally choose to be in 20 foot seas and high winds in the lighter Catalina or Caliber. But I would respect anyone who does it.
Obviously I know the configuration of my keel. I was commenting on the poster who equated the OI and the Whitby with a Catalina 34. I have been in 20 foot seas in the Whitby and we have done fine. We are safe, thoughtful sailors and I can't see where how much someone pays for his boat makes him presumptively safer than we are. I was much less safe as a crew on a Emspacher/Kanter in Hurricane Mitch because to change helsmen we had to unhook our harnesses and go outside the coming to get around the wheel.
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Old 17-11-2010, 13:52   #96
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In the sixties Perhaps seamanship was a quality more prized then.

I disagree. I think more people know vastly more about it now before heading out than those of the 60's and 70's.

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, and navigational gadgets! And with overdeveloped thumbs :-)

Bill
Nor do I think turning the clock back is the answer...

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Originally Posted by fawcettm View Post
30knot winds 30 foot seas for days, but 70 boats were going so why cant we? That decision must have been difficult.
Thats the interesting one, Mark.
its no problem for me because I am comfortable in my limitations and I haven't paid $1,000 to lose not to go.

Even here at the beginning of the ARC it looks like there will only be 10 knots wind. I'm not in the arc but will go at a similar time. For weeks people have been telling me to stay here till Jauary because the wind is too weak now! Tonight I was adavise to wait a week or so till theres some breeze.

I will go when I want, and I am delighted to go in 10 knots of wiind up the butt. I can do some reading, sunbaking and relaxing.... not scaring the crap outta myself



Mark
PS I hope newer folks who are reading this thread are working out why sailors always say they want sea room. In a storm get sea room. A lee shore, as we see here is no place for a boat of any size. NO MATTER HOW SICK YOU ARE.
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Old 17-11-2010, 14:47   #97
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Seems like info is slow to come
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Old 17-11-2010, 14:49   #98
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I remember reading somewhere that John and Phyllis on Morgan's Cloud tend to park the boat when heading uphill if true is over 20. I would agree with that, they sail the boat with just the two of them and really, why be uncomfortable and bust gear.
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Old 17-11-2010, 15:09   #99
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Seems like info is slow to come
If there is a fatality involved here, what info will become available publicly anytime soon? Just sayin - lawsuits and all.......
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Old 17-11-2010, 15:23   #100
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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I disagree. I think more people know vastly more about it now before heading out than those of the 60's and 70's.


Nor do I think turning the clock back is the answer...



Thats the interesting one, Mark.
its no problem for me because I am comfortable in my limitations and I haven't paid $1,000 to lose not to go.

Even here at the beginning of the ARC it looks like there will only be 10 knots wind. I'm not in the arc but will go at a similar time. For weeks people have been telling me to stay here till Jauary because the wind is too weak now! Tonight I was adavise to wait a week or so till theres some breeze.

I will go when I want, and I am delighted to go in 10 knots of wiind up the butt. I can do some reading, sunbaking and relaxing.... not scaring the crap outta myself



Mark
PS I hope newer folks who are reading this thread are working out why sailors always say they want sea room. In a storm get sea room. A lee shore, as we see here is no place for a boat of any size. NO MATTER HOW SICK YOU ARE.
Way to Go Mark.....
Its when 'your' Chi'....t? (for lack of a better word) is together that matters... I've been told many times I'm going to early/to late.... when I've listened I've regretted it... when I have not listened I was balanced and ready.... trust your instincts
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Old 17-11-2010, 19:44   #101
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Minimum Crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgregg View Post
Is there a minimum number of crew for a boat entered in Carib1500? I think that Rule 62 had just 4 crew. That seems really short handed for a 1500 mile race. I race on Ches Bay in Governors Cup (overnight race of 75 miles ) and like to have 6 crew on our 30 ft boat. Kevin
The minimum crew for the 1500 is 2. Unless you really want to get serious, 4 crew is sufficient as long as folks stay healthy. I take 4 and then if one person gets sick/hurt you've still got 3 to run the boat.

If you have more than 4 on board, you start dealing with space and personal comfort issues. If you're not concerned with those, then go with a larger crew.
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Old 18-11-2010, 04:45   #102
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Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Evans has it exactly right, i.e., that "fatigue and seasickness are integral parts of passage making". Offshore passagemakers need to PLAN for these eventualities.

Anyone with passage experience in this area would know that the forecasts (not "plan") for 30' seas and strong winds from the northerly quadrant blowing over several days would make for virtual hell in the Gulf Stream. Moreover, even out of the Stream, seas would be rough. This would be very hard on gear and, especially, on crew.

If you haven't been there, you might still understand this intellectually. Sometimes, though, that's not enough as the reality can be much worse than imagined.

The gentle art of 'heaving to' on the offshore tack is one which should be practiced BEFORE it is needed. This builds confidence and knowledge that: (1) the boat's motion will be much more comfortable than slogging on; (2) once done, the technique allows the crew to get much needed rest and to reassess things; and (3) the boat does, in fact, have "brakes" and can be safely stopped offshore in deep water. I've done it many times in moderate conditions and once in 45 knot winds and 20' seas. It's like a miracle cure.

We don't know the conditions aboard Rule 62 except from very sketchy information. They must have been hellish before and, especially, after being swamped while approaching North Cut Channel on a dark and stormy night. Perhaps we'll eventually get a more complete understanding when the Captain and/or crew tell their stories.

Hindsight is closer to 20-20 vision, of course, but one hopes that the organizers will in the future include a briefing on the dangers of entering inlets and channels along the East Coast and the Bahamas in any but the most favorable conditions, emphasizing that it doesn't take much bad weather to render many such channels impassable. In recent memory, not one but two very experienced professional captains of BIG sportfish boats have been swamped and lost their lives trying to run East Coast inlets in daylight in heavy weather. Rage conditions in the Bahamas are well-known, as are the life-threatening dangers attendant to them.

Bill

Being a beginner sailor, I was wondering about what you said just the other day. If I'm in the ocean and a storm comes though unexpected, why can't one just stop, put out a drogue or some other kind of anchor and just let the storm pass.
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Old 18-11-2010, 04:52   #103
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Being a beginner sailor, I was wondering about what you said just the other day. If I'm in the ocean and a storm comes though unexpected, why can't one just stop, put out a drogue or some other kind of anchor and just let the storm pass.
Most do just that.... or heave to... or if really severe I'll drop all sail and lay ahull....
But in shallow seas... strong currents.... close to a lee shore (-20miles) is a whole different ball game...
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Old 18-11-2010, 05:09   #104
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Most do just that.... or heave to... or if really severe I'll drop all sail and lay ahull....
But in shallow seas... strong currents.... close to a lee shore (-20miles) is a whole different ball game...

Yes, I'm talking offshore. Close to land and I would think all bets are off. Is that why a lot of ships run aground?, they tried to sit quiet to close to shore?

Also, I was discussing earlier with someone about a ketch. Set the mizzen in weather and bring down the main. What about the fors'l? Spinnaker? Should it be furled? Or up? I can't wait. ( mmmmm yes I can ).
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Old 18-11-2010, 05:13   #105
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Yes, I'm talking offshore. Close to land and I would think all bets are off. Is that why a lot of ships run aground?, they tried to sit quiet to close to shore?

Also, I was discussing earlier with someone about a ketch. Set the mizzen in weather and bring down the main. What about the fors'l? Spinnaker? Should it be furled? Or up? I can't wait. ( mmmmm yes I can ).
ROTFLMFAO.......
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