2010 Caribbean 1500 Rally

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Abacos Cruiser's Net (8:15 AM channel 68 VHF)
To have Emergency messages read (put Cottage or Vessel name in Subject line of email), send email to: Cruisers @ oii . net

And, the listening link is: http://24.244.169.130:8010/listen.pls

That will download a small app which is specific to the event.

This is the link to both the "live" and past nets: Out Island Inter.Net CrusiersNet

L8R

Skip

[TaoJones]

Because we've received several Reported Posts concerning some of the posts that appeared, above, I would just like to post this reminder to the members active in this thread:

While it is impossible for anyone who wasn't there that night, in those conditions, to know what was the "right" thing to do, it's probably also impossible not to imagine ourselves in that situation and try to gauge how we would have acted / reacted. Some of us may see ourselves as the captain or the male crew, while others may identify with the partially-disabled female victim or the captain's weakened wife.

Those who identify with the captain and male crew may wonder what could have been done differently that would have prevented loss of life. Those who identify with one, or both, of the female crew may wonder why the males didn't do something to better aid the weaker females in a life-threatening situation.

But without having actually been there, it's all just conjecture. Even after there is some official report on what happened, the truth is that none of us knows whether there was any way to assure an outcome that would have resulted in all four surviving.

Please understand that not all CF members are men, and regardless of sex, every member is unique . . . we will each react to a terrible tragedy like this in our own way. As we express ourselves, we may seem too sympathetic or too callous, too critical or too forgiving, too emotional or too heartless - such is the human condition.

If a member has expressed an opinion that is just the opposite of your own view, please understand that it is just that member's way of conveying what he / she is feeling. When it involves something like this heartbreaking incident, it's hard not to react emotionally.

Thank you for your understanding.

TaoJones

[Chuteman]

Originally Posted by SV Liberty

One question my wife and I were discussing yesterday, and that I don't believe I've seen posted/suggested in this thread, is the idea that in an emergency with the boat you stay with the boat until it slips under the water. I can't imagine the terror bouncing over reefs in huge breaking seas (I've sailed in the North Bar Channel, and in/out the Little Harbour channel a couple of times, and anchored a bit behind Lynyard, and even dinghied on the outside of Lynyard so I do know the area a little bit), but aren't you better off in a bit plastic boat than a little rubber raft in those conditions, at least until it breaks apart? We have discussed over and over how "you never leave the boat until it is sinking, and you don't cut the liferaft free until the big boat really sinks below the waves". Very few of us (not including me) can understand what it must be like to actually have to make that decision (leave or stay), but my thinking (way out of harm's way, of course) is that my family never, never leaves the boat until it is going under. Its made to float, and made strong, and will likely survive better a bashing over a reef on the way to shore than my body will.

Thoughts?

Dave

The latest tracking info from the boat or beacon if it was separated
26.378132 -76.980263
N26° 22' 41.3" W76° 58' 48.9"
2010-11-19 08:20:49 UTC -4h

How are the C1500 beacons powered? 100% batteries?
Mounted where? Waterproof?
Just wondering in light of the comment above.

Hopefully the family & friends will get more details soon during their search.

[sck5]

the 1500 transponders are mounted under the dodger. They are entirely self contained with their own batteries and are waterproof though I dont know how well they would do if submerged. They are stuck on to the cabin top under the dodger with some pretty serious sticky stuff. It wouldnt come off very easily.

[sck5]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

One thing that it seems the rally does not adequately communicate to the newer cruisers is that fatigue and seasickness are integral parts of passage making, especially on first passages and most especially on bouncy/breezy first passages.

THis is not true at all. I went on the rally and we had extensive seminars - one of the group who helped organize it was an MD (also a sailor) who spoke specifically and extensively about fatigue and seasickness. Having just finished (I was a first timer) I can testify that you have to experience it to really understand it and even though I wasnt seasick, it was a bouncy ride and hard to get adequate sleep. I can well imagine that anyone on this trip would be over fatigued.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by sck5

fatigue and seasickness. . . Having just finished (I was a first timer) I can testify that you have to experience it to really understand it .

Hmmm. . . .honestly you sound like you are agreeing with my basic point. I used the words "adequately communicate" and if I understand you, you are essentially saying you think that is not even possible in a seminar - "you have to experience it to really understand it". So let's agree on that.

As I said in a later post: "My impression is that there has been a fair bit of peer pressure toward pushing on and fast passage times. I am not at all being critical here, just pointing out an area that I think deserves strong attention when talking to first time passage makers. "

While on the rally, did you ever discuss or consider slowing or stopping the boat to get some rest? Or discuss any other ways to manage the fatigue?

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by lynandcheli

we hope to get on Pattie Toler's Cruisers Net 8:15am broadcast this morning.

In case your folks on-island haven't found another means, there is a VHF radio in the marina office of the Conch Inn. I expect the staff will allow use of the radio for the Net with an explanation of the circumstances.

I would suggest whoever is going to appeal to the Net for help listen to some of the links Skip posted above to gain an understanding of how the Net operates.

[skipgundlach]

In agreement with Dave on Liberty, we have a rule - don't get in the life raft if you don't have to step up.

Further, if the water's not so deep as to pull it under (depending on the model of life raft, maybe 100' or more), don't cut the cord, because staying in the same locale as the boat will enhance S&R efforts.

As it happens, that's the case where our heroes of this story came apart - but, just like all the rest of what's happened in this thread, conjecture about what actually happened, might have happened or should have happened is useless.

We're entirely blessed that our wreck was not life-threatening...

L8R

Skip

[GordMay]

No rule, including “step UP into a liferaft”, can adequately account for every circumstance.
It’s a good rule of thumb; but hardly an unbreakable commandment.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by GordMay

No rule, including “step UP into a liferaft”, can adequately account for every circumstance.
It’s a good rule of thumb; but hardly an unbreakable commandment.

Thumbthing to think about :{))

Of course, every circumstance requires on-the-spot evaluation. However, I agree wholeheartedly with Liberty's contention that our boats, for the most part, are a great deal stronger than we who sail them, and staying with it/them until the last possible minute is usually a pretty good idea.

If the boat's still floating, however disabled, I contend that it's a great deal more difficult (not at all impossible, I agree) to either drown or be torn to pieces by the rocks on/in it than in the water. The number of boats found later, essentially unharmed, or, certainly, salvageable, after its occupants have departed under whatever motivation and means is legion...

L8R

Skip, happy to be floating in Hatchet Bay, Eleuthera Bahamas

[sck5]

we never thought we would be better off stopped than moving. The autopilot did nearly all the steering and with 20 ft. seas during the first half of the passage we would have been pretty up and down whether hove to or not. We thought (rightly it turned out) that we would get more sleep if we got south where conditions were a bit better. Even so, we got to the BVI's tired enough to sleep for a long time.

it is probably true that I didnt truly understand the importance of fatigue in clouding my mind - fortunately I didnt have any emergencies to deal with but I do think the 1500 organizers did the best they could to communicate it - and it is also true that they were always on call with good advice for virtually any problem anyone had -

The bottom line is that there is no way to get experience without actually experiencing it - there has to be a first time for everyone. I did all of the research and all of the preparation (including crewing on shorter passages, e.g bermuda-chesapeake) that anyone suggested but still think the 1500 was a very good way to do it, at least for me. I had many questions and they always answered them - I would certainly recommend the 1500 to any other first timers.

[lynandcheli]

Hi All,

I and Laura's friends and family cannot thank you enough. The information has been extremely helpful, is being used and is making a difference. The word is getting out.

Thanks again and keep the recommendations coming if you think of anything else. It is much appreciated!

All my best and I thought you might like to see that the news picked it up as well:

Private Search for Atlanta Boater Begins in Bahamas - 11Alive.com | WXIA | Atlanta, GA

Lyn

[RTB]

Originally Posted by sck5

The bottom line is that there is no way to get experience without actually experiencing it

And that is probably what keeps many tied up safely in their slip, or sailing the bays. I bet you gained a ton of experience and confidence. Congratulations!

Whatever the outcome for Laura, she knew a 1500 mile passage would have some risk. She felt ready and I doubt anything would have kept her from doing this with the crew she was with. I say Bravo, Laura! It's better than sitting on the fence, wishing you were out there...

Ralph

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by sck5

the 1500 organizers . . . . were always on call with good advice for virtually any problem anyone had -

This raises a question I have wanted to ask . . . did the 1500 organizers, or anyone else, advised the use of this entrance pass, was 'the rage' mentioned, was a night entrance discussed/advised as safe? Perhaps no-one here knows, but I have been curious what sort of outside advice was sought and what was given.

The bottom line is that there is no way to get experience without actually experiencing it.

Agreed, and interestingly even after a lot of passage-making, after spending a little time ashore it is easy to forget what it is like at sea. Its such a different environment and experience.

.....

[donradcliffe]

I think the above posts on offshore experience and fatigue by estarzinger and skz5 are mandatory reading for all would-be cruisers and ICW sailors. You really need to get the experience, and the best way to do the first time is by going on a passage with someone who has the experience.

The organizers of the 1500 do their best to educate their participants ahead of time and the seminars help, but there will always be a few boats which get into trouble during the rally. A few years back, I listened to the radio checkins for a couple of days, and it was an eye-opener.

Boat--"Well, we had problems with our mainsail last night and cut it away...it seemed like a good idea at the time, but now what do we do??

Organizer--"You're 300 miles from Bermuda--how much fuel do you have?--If you hurry you might make it there ahead of the next front.

(The boat subsequently had engine problems and successfully sailed to the BVI on the genoa. The really enlightening part was listening to them realize that the Rally had no magic solution to their problems--they were really on their own.)

Another boat in the same Rally had engine/fuel problems, then genset problems, then electrical power problems--there was a lot of discussions on the radio about how to try to fix things. One of the conclusions I came to while listening was that the organizer (who was on another boat) was also suffering from fatigue. One of the suggestions I would have for the organizers is that for the first 4 or 5 days they would benefit from have an expert on a shoreside radio who could work on these problems without the handicap of fatigue.

The checkins are twice a day-- my guess is that Rule 62 told the organizers that they were dropping out and going to the Bahamas, but their decision to specifically enter the North Bar channel may not have been discussed. It would be good to get some more information from the rally participants on this forum.