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Old 20-11-2010, 07:56   #136
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Originally Posted by xxuxx View Post
First off, Boatman, its "she and her friends" secondly it's obvious you know nothing about surf. Offshore breezes don't beget big surf, rather they smooth the surf out and make the waves pretty, it also holds them up longer for a more hollow wave....it doesn't make them bigger. It is what every surfer looks for. Take a look at almost every resort brochure and one will find the photos are taken usually when there are offshore breezes....just makes everything smoother.
Sorry bout that.... the 4x's in your handle threw me....
As to knowing surf...
I know all I need to know about it.... keep my boat well away from it...
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Old 20-11-2010, 08:00   #137
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... I have the right to free speech and point my finger at whomever I want. I hope they feel my pointing finger. Sorry if this offends you.
With whatever respect is due, I believe the issue not to be whether (or not) you have a right to express an opinion; but the probative value of that opinion.

Considering that yours is based upon so little second hand evidence, and the fact that you insist upon prejudging (possible) future testimony; I’d judge your “finger pointing” as valueless and irresponsible speculation.
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Old 20-11-2010, 08:16   #138
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With whatever respect is due,. . . I’d judge your “finger pointing” as valueless and irresponsible speculation.
I believe, our joint objective should be to learn as much as possible from this experience, not to criticise. The value of this discussion is to help each other avoid a similar situation.

I personally would encourage xxuxx (And all of us) to write his post and points from a positive learning perspective. His points could all have been made in that way. There is actually a quite good point about potentially formally using the buddy system on cruising boats (who have multiple crew) - its organized occasionally on pro offshore race boats (the volvo) but I have never heard of a formal buddy system/protocal beings discussed/used on a cruising boat.

Finger pointing is simply not productive; and right now with the family and crew crushed by saddness, is mean spirited.

We all make mistakes. The path forward for all of us is to learn from them.
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Old 20-11-2010, 08:49   #139
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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
One thing that it seems the rally does not adequately communicate to the newer cruisers is that fatigue and seasickness are integral parts of passage making, especially on first passages and most especially on bouncy/breezy first passages.
...
Its not talked about a lot, but you just need to plan for fatigue and seasickness. If it gets too bad, so you feel you might be making bad decisions or not have any reserve to handle any developing problems, then you simply need to stop/heave-to/forereach and get everyone rested and showered and feeling fresher. There is some peer pressure in these rallys to keep going and keep the speed up but sometimes it just simply much better to stop the boat and take a day off. This is usually a better choice that running into shore while fatigued.
With utmost respect, I don't this is quite right. I run a rally from NY to Bermuda each June, and we do spend a fair amount of time on these issues. Far before the boats ever arrive at the starting line we strongly urge all participants to experiment with seasickness medication so that they know what works for them once they start. It's an express issue because so many people start out believing they simply don't suffer from seasickness, and while that may have been true for them, things are far different when you are in ocean conditions for days on end.

Likewise, as to fatigue, we also spend a fair amount of time telling the participants that they MUST get rest, and when they are off watch they need to lay down, even if they can't sleep, because their ability to be fresh and alert is a safety issue for the rest of the crew.

In terms of bailout points, we also advise participants that they need to have bailout points in mind, and they should have charts, etc., for that contingency. This point is not all that applicable to our event generally speaking because the reality is that if you need to bail out, odds are the closet point is going back in around Montauk. And once you are far enough out, Bermuda becomes about as close as anything else, particularly after you make the Gulf Stream crossing.

I've participated in one of Steve Black's events only once, it was a long time ago, and it was to Bermuda, not the Carib. But I can tell you this, he runs a first rate event. He covers everything referenced above (plus much more), and probably does a better job of it than we do. In fact, at least in the event I did with him, he encourages boats to heave-to periodically, not just for rest, but simply to make things easier to do, such as cooking.

Also, in terms of the "schedule" issue and keeping up with the fleet, it is true that this can be a factor in any organized event. That said, my experience with Steve, and what I've seen simply by following his events, is that he is very willing to delay the start due to weather. Indeed, he did that here, waiting a week.

I know you are not being critical of Steve, and I certainly am not being critical of you. I made this post just to point out that I don't think most rallies come up short on the points you raised. To the contrary, because rallies tend to attract some less experienced offshore sailors, these types of issues get a lot of attention.
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Old 20-11-2010, 09:10   #140
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Seven boats in the Bahamas Classes 8 and 9 arrived in Marsh Harbour two days before the Rule 62 incident. All of these, from their tracks and waypoints, passed into the Abacos thru the Loggerhead Channel lying between Whale Cay and Great Guana Cay.

That they all made it OK may or may not have influenced Rule 62.

While the Loggerhead Channel might have been passable two days later -- though doubtful -- that's very different from the North Bar Channel.

Question: did ANYONE -- Carib 1500 organizer, participant, or other -- warn Rule 62 that to attempt to enter thru a passage such as the North Cut Channel was just plain SUICIDE?

Did Rule 62 attempt to communicate via VHF or other means with anyone actually in the Bahamas to obtain local conditions? There was a lot of VHF traffic in Marsh Harbour about the terrible conditions.

Just wondering...

Bill
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Old 20-11-2010, 09:32   #141
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I think all those that went through Whale Cay Cut were encouraged to speed it up as the organizers knew that the cuts would be impassable in a day or so.
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Old 20-11-2010, 09:52   #142
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more speculation

Not that this thread needs any more speculation, but it seems likely to me that the two individuals that went overboard and were recovered prior to the move to the life raft were probably injured in some way during that evolution. I wouldn't be surprised if they suffered broken ribs or limbs going overboard in such conditions and being battered against the hull until they could be brought back on board. That would make it even more remarkable that all four managed to get in the life raft in the first place.

Whatever decision making process went into getting them into the situation to begin with, I think they did a pretty good job getting 3 of 4 safely on the beach once everything went to hell. It may have all been blind luck, but the fact that they recovered two MOB's and got everybody into the life raft suggests to me that they had their head's in the game and were doing everything humanly possible to save everyone. There comes a point when circumstances just get beyond a person's ability to cope with them.
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Old 20-11-2010, 10:05   #143
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Originally Posted by xxuxx View Post
... What ever happened to the buddy system? Why didn't David look out for Laura? The captain protected his wife, yet Laura was left to fen for herself. NOT KOOL!.... Cowards!!!!
I have been a life guard, so I believe I can comment on this.

First of all, no one on this board was there. We have no way of knowing the exact circumstances, so we should not surmise. It causes us to come to conclusions which at best may be wrong, and at worst, extremely defamatory to the survivors.

That being said, one of the things that we learned in our training was that when rescuing a potential drowning victim we needed to keep in mind that, no matter how horrible it sounds, it was better for one to drown rather than two.

A drowning person has an immense amount of strength as they attempt to reach for anything that may keep their head above water, and that includes the lifeguard. We were always taught to approach the victim and offer something other than ourselves to grab on too; a paddle, a towel, our own bathing suits, a life ring or jacket... something, but not us. And we were to approach them that when we got within grabbing distance that we would reverse so that our legs were pointing at the victim - if he grabbed them, we were able to give a strong kick away.

I know it sounds bad, but what use is the life guard if he becomes endangered. In fact, we were taught one of the best things we could do, is knock the person out if he grabbed us, and then bring them ashore. (I am not sure if in today's litigious society that is still valid - if a jurisdiction did not have a good Samaritan law, I would be concerned).

So, what did happen? We don't know if an undertow grabbed Laura, we don't know if she was lost from sight... we just don't know.

Sorry, it just does not make sense for one, two or three people to be further endangered by leaving a life raft. It is sad, truly tragic, but those are some of the realities of having to deal with extreme emergencies.

Let's not be arm-chair quarterbacks... we were not there and as bad as all on this board may feel, please have empathy for those that were... my bet is they feel much worse than anyone here can express.
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Old 20-11-2010, 13:46   #144
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Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
we do spend a fair amount of time on these issues. . . . seasickness medication, Likewise, as to fatigue.

That great, I applaud the educational effort.

But, it may be that even more emphasis is needed. I would be curious to see a real analysis, but I have followed the safety incidents in the rallies for a bit more than a decade and my strong impression is that fatigue and seasickness (and a lack of understanding of them) has caused more safety incidents that any other cause.

I would be curious how many boats have ever hove-to to manage fatigue in the 1500 (I know a few have done so for 'heavy weather', but I am not aware of many that have used it as a time out). My impression is that there has been a fair bit of peer pressure toward pushing on and fast passage times.

I am not at all being critical here, just pointing out an area that I think deserves strong attention when talking to first time passage makers.
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Old 20-11-2010, 14:02   #145
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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
My impression is that there has been a fair bit of peer pressure toward pushing on and fast passage times.

I am not at all being critical here, just pointing out an area that I think deserves strong attention when talking to first time passage makers.
Very fair comment.
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Old 20-11-2010, 17:23   #146
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Flame, Slame, obviously you missed my point! It is not that I am a surfer but rather to illustrate that the surf conditions were sheer panic and sheer terror compounded by darkness!! But it is ironic that the Captain got out his feeble wife safe. What ever happened to: "The captain goes down with the ship", in order to save others? Yes I am pointing fingers! What ever happened to the buudy system? In Captain Ross's vessel, its every man/woman for himself!
From what I've read they found her life jacket and she has suffered an injury a while back that disabled one of her arms. Having been thrown around in surf, I know how disorienting it can be. At night it was probably far worse than we can imagine. Everyone was thrown in the water when the life raft capsized and after everyone surfaced, I'm sure they tried to find her, but in those conditions, there had to be a huge undertow and I imagine she dragged was way beyond their help.

In any case, as was said earlier, this is speculation and it would probably be best to wait until the crew gets out of the hospital and the inquiry is held.
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Old 20-11-2010, 17:45   #147
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From what I've read they found her life jacket and she has suffered an injury a while back that disabled one of her arms. Having been thrown around in surf, I know how disorienting it can be. At night it was probably far worse than we can imagine. Everyone was thrown in the water when the life raft capsized and after everyone surfaced, I'm sure they tried to find her, but in those conditions, there had to be a huge undertow and I imagine she dragged was way beyond their help.

In any case, as was said earlier, this is speculation and it would probably be best to wait until the crew gets out of the hospital and the inquiry is held.
A mile out on a reef there is no huge undertow. Quite the opposite....total surge. (towards the beach I might add)
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Old 20-11-2010, 18:22   #148
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I find this whole thread very disturbing.
There is nothing to be learned and a lot of
real malicious, disrespectful, B.S. being spewed.
Are their moderators on this forum?
Is this the attitudes I'll meet on the water?
It's all so sad.
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Old 20-11-2010, 18:38   #149
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Is this the attitudes I'll meet on the water?
.
Yep. Lots of stuff gets analysed.
But the people on this forum are better informed of the latest news than folks in the anchorage.
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Old 20-11-2010, 19:30   #150
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Hi All,

I am writing to you on the behalf of Meredith Jordanand Laura Zekoll’s
family. We have a very important request of the sailing and boating community.

Meredith Jordan, family and friends will be arriving in to the Abacos tomorrow morning and need some assistance while there. I am acting as their land based liaison to communicate your responses. You can post them on this site or send them to me at lynmidas@aol.com.

Here is what is needed:
1. The family will be staying in Marsh Harbor and we are trying to find out if any cruisers in the area would be willing to assist with the search for Laura. This is only if the conditions are safe as no one wants additional risks to be taken related to Laura.
2. They have limited funds, but are willing to pay fuel charges and for a good local guide to assist with the search.
3. A member recommended that the family consider hiring a plane for a search and/or asking about the possibility of a training exercise from the authorities. Does anyone have a recommendation of a pilot/plane, etc. ?
4. Any other recommendations?
5. Please post this to any other sites/forums that I may not have access to.

Your posts, thoughts and prayers are extremely appreciated by the family.
I look forward to hearing from you and thank you for your posts and recommendations to date.
Lyn
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