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Old 23-03-2012, 15:29   #91
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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My grandfather had been a fisherman on the Grand Banks, in the time of sailing ships and dories. He told me that once, a liner arrived in New York with the rigging of a schooner on its bow. In that time, liners crossed the Banks at full speed, even in fog, without any regard for the fishermen anchored there.
Many of the Grand Banks fishing boats hated the big transatlantic liners which would run through fog at full speed (in the theory that the faster you got through a danger spot, the better). Captain James Barr of the RMS Caronia received the nickname "Foggy" because he was one of the few line captains who tended to slow down in fog rather than speed on. Quite a few churches in fishing villages have little memorials for lost men whose boats were run down by the liners.
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Old 23-03-2012, 16:33   #92
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Money is a real issue for many on the water. Electronics cost thousands and become obsolete in the twinkling of an eye, and SOLAS para flares at around $50 a pop expire pretty quickly, too. Litigation, especially in the USA, probably doesn't help pricing. So I can sympathize with hard choices, knowing that all the gear for a 10-m boat with crew of three or four, complete with gumby suits and SOLAS rafts, could run 15,000 Euros/dollars or more. Somewhere there has to be a compromise between having all the stuff (and knowing how to use it!) and venturing out as unprotected as in our great-grandparents' era.
I respect your post and I dare point attention to the fact that (e.g.) an AIS transponder can be had at just USD 600 or thereabouts. Also, equipment cost is a cost of running the business and as such can be deducted from the revenue prior to income taxation (at least I can say this of three EU countries' legal systems that I have good understanding of). If a business is run cost-consciously to the point where crew's safety is not fully taken care of, then perhaps it should not be run at all.

I know many fishermen and I know too that everybody is trying to keep equipment cost low. But, believe me or not, those who are still in the business are doing pretty well and CAN afford radars, liferafts and other safety gear.

b.
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Old 23-03-2012, 18:35   #93
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

AIS receivers are not expensive and will give a warning even if you are busy avoiding the radar screen. Plus, they can compute a possible collision even when the target (?) is still out of sight. If I were operating a smaller slower vessel in dense fog, I would feel better if there was something like AIS, especially since large commercial vessels are required to operate a transponder. There are still military vessels who might not comply, and recreational craft which sometimes are large enough and fast enough to provide as much danger as this ferry. 37 knots? AIS seems to have a good range, but at this rate a collision would happen in a matter of minutes. 10 to 15 miles is about all you can count on.
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Old 23-03-2012, 18:44   #94
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

Think of this as a car crash. Dense fog. One car (ship) going speed limit in zero visibility. The other stationary in the road. Is speed a factor? Of course. It is irresponsible to drive (sail) faster than your limited visibility will allow you to avoid a collision. Overdriving/speeding is clearly a primary cause of this accident.
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Old 23-03-2012, 20:11   #95
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Page 23 and 64 (french,english) hand shouted the skipper...
Btw you can call me Teddy... dunno none named dude
OK Teddy, the hand was on deck and didn't have any controls. He shouted to the skipper but made no mention that the skipper heard or acknowledged him, nor that the potter made any helm or engine changes. I'm fairly certain that the two hands would have noticed that, so can assume that the skipper did not do anything to avoid the cat.
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Old 23-03-2012, 20:17   #96
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Originally Posted by Tashtego View Post
Think of this as a car crash. Dense fog. One car (ship) going speed limit in zero visibility. The other stationary in the road. Is speed a factor? Of course. It is irresponsible to drive (sail) faster than your limited visibility will allow you to avoid a collision. Overdriving/speeding is clearly a primary cause of this accident.
This is not a car crash. Cars don't have radar. Cars don't have AIS. Cars don't have fog signals. You can't compare apples to oranges.

In 30m vis, the ferry crew would not be able to see beyond the bow of their own ship - what do you suggest they do, come to a complete stop?
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Old 24-03-2012, 00:01   #97
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

They could have watched the radar screen, or stop if they had something else, obviously more interesting, to do...
The fact is the potter had started it's manouvers.. not soon enough to avoid the collision but the warning shout to the helmsman in this case, and any command of that matter to alter course or speed is the first step in manouvering a vessel. After that it was irrelevant how much they managed to do considering the outcome. IMHO
BR Teddy
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Old 24-03-2012, 01:18   #98
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
They could have watched the radar screen, or stop if they had something else, obviously more interesting, to do...
The fact is the potter had started it's manouvers.. not soon enough to avoid the collision but the warning shout to the helmsman in this case, and any command of that matter to alter course or speed is the first step in manouvering a vessel. After that it was irrelevant how much they managed to do considering the outcome. IMHO
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And how then (without adequate lookout) the potter heard the ferry, saw the ferry and tried to avoid the collison
So you are suggesting that the fact that the two hands working the pots on the quarterdeck heard and saw the ferry at a range of about 30 metres, that constitutes a proper lookout? And that one of those hands shouting "go astern" constitutes manoeuvring? I don't think you'd find a single professional mariner anywhere in the world that would agree with you, but you are entitled to your opinion.
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Old 24-03-2012, 01:55   #99
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

They did what they could under the circumstances, what we cant say about the ferry..
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Old 24-03-2012, 03:11   #100
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
They did what they could under the circumstances, what we cant say about the ferry..
Eh?????

Potter - no fog signal, no lookout.
Ferry - no fog signal, no lookout.
What's the diff?
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Old 24-03-2012, 05:22   #101
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

Errr... Like you said earlier read the investigation paper.. All the recommandations given there are for the ferries. None whatsoever for the podders. Read also what's mentioned about the "sterile" bridges and how it separates the bridge of the environment and what it means for the dicipline of the crew..
BR Teddy

ps. Im out of this conversation now
Fair winds.. :-)
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Old 24-03-2012, 06:22   #102
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
So you are suggesting that the fact that the two hands working the pots on the quarterdeck heard and saw the ferry at a range of about 30 metres, that constitutes a proper lookout? And that one of those hands shouting "go astern" constitutes manoeuvring? I don't think you'd find a single professional mariner anywhere in the world that would agree with you, but you are entitled to your opinion.
If the Ferry had any professional mariners onboard (rather than simple licensed chart plotter attendents ) they would have expected to encounter a vessel whose primary means of looking out was eyeballs. The basic thing with this case is that they simply didn't give a sh#t - as figured anything they hit would be smaller / not matter.

Whilst application of technology may have been useful, given that in this case the Ferry cabin crew were incapable of even using what technology they had onboard not a great stretch to imagine that any audible AIS alarm would have been switched off (as the Fog horn was) and that the AIS track would not even have been looked at or understood (as the Radar wasn't)....and that even without the technology failing / being misunderstood / not being accurate to 1/2 inch .

One of the striking absences from the conversations on the Bridge was any indication of basic navigation being undertaken.

Chart Plotter on - Check
Autopilot on - Check
Press the go the button - Check
Put brain on snooze - Check

Rather than dumping the problem of someone's ineptitude / incompetence onto others at a cost of squillions to other people, with no guarantee that would even solve the problem (as is "the modern way" ) - the easy answer is to fully prosecute those who are unable to think for themselves, both the cabin crew on the bridge and the Company Directors / Management.....both jail time and simple barring from positions both onboard a vessel and as part of management of any shipping company - those easy to do when the ferry requires a licence to operate in France (employ someone banned if you want to - just means no licence to operate)....when it's "your" livelihood and pension at stake, and not simply someone else's life it does concentrate the mind.

In this case I would also throw in a requirement for the Condor ships to be put on Probation - at the Company expense required to have 3rd party proffessional captains onboard to baby sit the crew....and for every trip to then be analysed ashore from the electronic data, with Skipper / Crew required to explain and justify every decision made (or the absence of any decisions)....hitting companies in the pocket through aggro () does also concentrate the mind.
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Old 24-03-2012, 06:46   #103
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Scanned the thread, didn't see this comment...We have a large catamaran ferry on Lake Michigan. One day I was checking out my radar and noticed I could not see the cat coming towards me, maybe 1/4 mile away. It's shape is very "stealthy" and does not show up well. In addition it is made of fiberglass.
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Old 24-03-2012, 06:50   #104
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

Pretty much agree with you there David, except for the "they simply didn't give a sh#t".
Rather, I think they were so incompetent that they did not consider another vessel to be the area, and even LIKELY to be in that area.
On the HSS ferry, there was, as has been pointed out, virtually no look out.
The VDR recordings of the radar screen dumps clearly show the fishing boat, and in the time frame, they could easily have avoided it. No mention in the report about the use of radar guard zones, if these had been set correctly, the radar would have sounded an alarm as soon as the echo of the fishing boat entered the guard zone.
Piss poor on the part of the ferry crew, especially the master for running such a crap bridge team
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Old 24-03-2012, 06:52   #105
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Originally Posted by Greggegner View Post
Scanned the thread, didn't see this comment...We have a large catamaran ferry on Lake Michigan. One day I was checking out my radar and noticed I could not see the cat coming towards me, maybe 1/4 mile away. It's shape is very "stealthy" and does not show up well. In addition it is made of fiberglass.
This one was made from aluminium, and its big. Its the same type that runs out from Liverpool, and they show up really well on radar, even on my crappy raymarine one
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