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Old 16-03-2012, 16:33   #61
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
That's not an excuse, though, right? You still have to maintain an effective watch, and being deaf to another boat's fog signal isn't very effective.
Wouldn't make any difference if AC/DC were doing a gig 100 yards in front, on one of those ferrys you still wouldn't hear a thing door open or closed.
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Old 16-03-2012, 16:36   #62
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Wouldn't make any difference if AC/DC were doing a gig 100 yards in front, on one of those ferrys you still wouldn't hear a thing door open or closed.
Sounds like it leaves them pretty exposed when they hit someone ;-)
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Old 16-03-2012, 16:43   #63
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
Sounds like it leaves them pretty exposed when they hit someone ;-)
Even at 40kts in the fog not looking at the radar, sad thing is even the threat of bankruptcy won't leave them as exposed as the fishermen were.
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Old 21-03-2012, 21:52   #64
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
As it's an accident investigation report it doesn't get into blaming folks - just recording the reasons / contributing factors for the incident.........High speed in thick fog (38 knots ), turning off foghorn and simply not paying attention on the bridge to the Radar (all chatting about Movies and random drug testing) - the fishing boat clearly visible on the radar snapshots.

Having just re-read this thread, kinda amusing to see the comments from those unable to add 2+2 to make 4 for self . "wait until someone tells me the answer" .
Don't be so smug David, when you are still clearly blind to the laundry list of contributing errors made on both vessels. Speed was only one reason that didn't even warrant serious analysis in the report. The most significant causal factor was the absence of adequate lookout (definitely on the ferry and likely on the potter).
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Old 22-03-2012, 04:19   #65
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Don't be so smug David, when you are still clearly blind to the laundry list of contributing errors made on both vessels. Speed was only one reason that didn't even warrant serious analysis in the report. The most significant causal factor was the absence of adequate lookout (definitely on the ferry and likely on the potter).
That's certainly one interpretation of the report.
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Old 22-03-2012, 10:53   #66
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

Bad and sad news.

I think things go grossly wrong if a boat is allowed to speed thru the fog relying on radar only. There is always an option of slowing down and having one seaman on the bow, watching. Just slowing down enough might have saved a man's life.

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Old 22-03-2012, 11:01   #67
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

As for 'hearing the ferry coming' then PLS guys make yourselves a favour and go ONCE work some on a fishing boat. This may change your vision somewhat.

I believe active AIS on both boats might have helped.

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Old 22-03-2012, 11:03   #68
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
That's certainly one interpretation of the report.
Interpretation?!?

Quote:

BEA
mer recommends :

To
CONDOR VITESSE owner

3/
To make sure of the good enforcement of the ISM code procedures and of the
company internal orders.

To authorities in charge of regulations

4/
to think about the implementation for high speed crafts of a “sterile wheelhouse” concept comparable to the one already implemented by the aviation authority requiring bridge watchs to refrain from non-essential activities during critical phases of navigation and particularly in restricted visibility conditions and during fairway navigation.


I don't see where they recommend slower speeds. What I did read was that speed was not a causal factor but an 'underlying factor' in the crash and an 'aggravating factor' in the outcome. The main cause was inattention and the subsequent poor look-out. You've piqued my interest now - how do you interpret it?
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Old 22-03-2012, 11:25   #69
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Interpretation?!?




I don't see where they recommend slower speeds. What I did read was that speed was not a causal factor but an 'underlying factor' in the crash and an 'aggravating factor' in the outcome. The main cause was inattention and the subsequent poor look-out. You've piqued my interest now - how do you interpret it?
I haven't re-read the report - so am taking what you quote above as correct (and certainly it chimes with my memory).

My intepretation of speed being an "underlying factor" (albeit not a causal factor) and an "aggravating factor" in the outcome is that speed was a major factor, if not the major factor.

To suggest otherwise is like saying the reason someone died in a car accident was from hitting a brick wall, and that doing so at 100mph was immaterial . Not looking out of the windscreen will also have played a part - but that and brick wall both survivable without the 100mph thing.

I don't think that a big thing was made of the speed in the report simply as the technology recording the speed of the vessel (coupled with simple location of incident vs time of departure) as 38 knots was never in doubt or dispute......and that doing 38 knots blind is not in itself illegal......just that the consequences of doing so may end you up in jail (which end of things is outside the remit of this report - IMO quite rightly).

As I said originally, 38 knots in thick fog is verging on the homicidal. My bet is they would never have done so if they thought any risk to themselves.
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Old 22-03-2012, 11:34   #70
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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The most significant causal factor was the absence of adequate lookout (definitely on the ferry and likely on the potter).
And how then (without adequate lookout) the potter heard the ferry, saw the ferry and tried to avoid the collison
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Old 22-03-2012, 15:18   #71
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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And how then (without adequate lookout) the potter heard the ferry, saw the ferry and tried to avoid the collison
Before you post the whistling smiley, you should read the report. There is no indication that the potter made any effort to avoid the collision, and as far as we know the master never saw it coming - the two hands heard and saw the ferry at the last moment before they could make it to the wheelhouse.
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Old 22-03-2012, 18:18   #72
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
My intepretation of speed being an "underlying factor" (albeit not a causal factor) and an "aggravating factor" in the outcome is that speed was a major factor, if not the major factor.

I don't think that a big thing was made of the speed in the report simply as the technology recording the speed of the vessel (coupled with simple location of incident vs time of departure) as 38 knots was never in doubt or dispute......and that doing 38 knots blind is not in itself illegal......just that the consequences of doing so may end you up in jail (which end of things is outside the remit of this report - IMO quite rightly).
Read the report - the between-the-lines takeaway is that the speed was too high for the way the watch was being run. The recommendations seem to suggest that high-speed vessels can operate at speed in fog if they run a sterile bridge environment and are scrupulous with the rules.

Quote:
To suggest otherwise is like saying the reason someone died in a car accident was from hitting a brick wall, and that doing so at 100mph was immaterial . Not looking out of the windscreen will also have played a part - but that and brick wall both survivable without the 100mph thing.
Cars can go 100 mph safely and not hit anything. If the driver's busy playing games on his iPhone, it won't matter that he was doing 100 or 50 when he hits a brick wall, now will it? Add to it, that if no-one in the car is wearing a seatbelt and they disabled the airbags and a 20-mph crash will be deadly.
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Old 23-03-2012, 01:54   #73
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Cars can go 100 mph safely and not hit anything..
Yes but not ships on the sea outside traffic separation zones in a fog without signaling nor wathing the radar ie eyes wide shut 38kn.

The fact potter didn't have time to avoid collision doesn't chance the fact they tried to..
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as far as we know the master never saw it coming ..
As far as I know not you and no one else have no such knowledge. Some indication of it might be found if the wreck is so much intact that the position of the wheel and the throttle can be investigated
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Old 23-03-2012, 04:58   #74
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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There is no indication that the potter made any effort to avoid the collision, and as far as we know the master never saw it coming - the two hands heard and saw the ferry at the last moment before they could make it to the wheelhouse.
He wouldn't have seen it coming...... the visibility was 20m to 30m at the time and the ferry was doing 37kts.

So the vessels were never in sight of each other until the last few seconds.....so Section 2 of Colregs does not apply.

The bigger issue is that the normal operation of the Potter, resulted in an inability to maintain a full time radar watch. (the skipper had to face the back of the boat to shoot the lines)....which was a presumably an underlying factor in the collision (according to the report).

But I have to say, I don't think the Potter ever had a chance. Assuming that his radar was set to 0.75 miles like the ferry's (this is unknown), and assuming that he had noticed the ferry as soon as it came on his screen (which presumably he didn't), he would have had to determine the course and speed of the target on his radar, determine that the target is on a converging course, determine that something doing 37 knots is going to be the give way vessel when it comes into sight, realise that the target is not giving way, cut or otherwise get rid of his fishing lines, manouver so as to avoid a collision.

All this in 1 min 20 secs.......not a chance.
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Old 23-03-2012, 06:00   #75
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Read the report - the between-the-lines takeaway is that the speed was too high for the way the watch was being run. The recommendations seem to suggest that high-speed vessels can operate at speed in fog if they run a sterile bridge environment and are scrupulous with the rules.
Not entirely sure if we differ much, if at all ....but if we do then am happy to differ .

FWIW, whilst the actions of the Skipper (of the Condor Ferry) may not be illegal (running 38 knots only on Radar) - personally I think it shows a distinct lack of seamanship, especially for a so called proffessional. Which in my book is a far worse "crime" than anything he is presently charged with.
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