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Old 30-03-2011, 02:00   #46
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Originally Posted by perchance View Post
Is it common practice to fish in the traffic separation zones?
I have no idea if it is common in English Channel.
But in Greece...
Tell their fishermen they should not fish on the lanes to Piraeus... There is real floating village of them across the scheme some nights...

I understand it is somewhat off-topic, but a question was general
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Old 30-03-2011, 04:58   #47
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Is it common practice to fish in the traffic separation zones?
Not in the zones but in the no mans land inbetween you do see quite a few.

Check here - Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions

A lot of the pink ones will be fishing boats.

Busy bit of sea.
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Old 15-03-2012, 17:19   #48
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

The French report about this collision is online here: http://www.beamer-france.org/BanqueDocument/pdf_289.pdf

The English text begins in page 43. The main conclusion is that the ferry was motoring at 36kts in fog while the bridge crew was chatting (the transcript of the conversation is included, translation beginning in page 95) instead of watching the radar display. They also turned the fog horn off because it made too much noise in the bridge.

Alain
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Old 16-03-2012, 05:19   #49
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
The French report about this collision is online here: http://www.beamer-france.org/BanqueDocument/pdf_289.pdf

The English text begins in page 43. The main conclusion is that the ferry was motoring at 36kts in fog while the bridge crew was chatting (the transcript of the conversation is included, translation beginning in page 95) instead of watching the radar display. They also turned the fog horn off because it made too much noise in the bridge.

Alain
Thanks for posting that .

As it's an accident investigation report it doesn't get into blaming folks - just recording the reasons / contributing factors for the incident.........High speed in thick fog (38 knots ), turning off foghorn and simply not paying attention on the bridge to the Radar (all chatting about Movies and random drug testing) - the fishing boat clearly visible on the radar snapshots.

Having just re-read this thread, kinda amusing to see the comments from those unable to add 2+2 to make 4 for self . "wait until someone tells me the answer" .
.
AFAIK the criminal case is still ongoing - Captain charged with Manslaughter I think. Be interesting to see if the commercial pressure to keep to a schedule comes into play (no matter what the company procedures may say).
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Old 16-03-2012, 07:47   #50
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

I'm a full scale pilot, comparing air traffic, that is totally controlled by ATC in IFR is comparing apples to oranges. No traffic out there legally flying VFR in IFR conditions. Really no comparison there.
Sounds like the bridge crew became complacent, and totally screwed the pooch!.
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Old 16-03-2012, 12:18   #51
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

Thanks David for posting the article in the first place and Hydra for follow-up in posting the findings. Seriously negligent ferry crew, taking too much for granted. Again, condolances to the family of the lost fishermen and to his fellow crew members.

The traffic sepration scheme around Los Angeles harbor works as well as it does in part because of the well-known heavy recreational traffic that includes plenty of weekend warriors who don't seem to understand either the Seperation Zones between Catalina and the mainland or the Precautionary Area just outside the harbor entrance and more importantly because there is close oversight by Traffic Control (vhf 14) situated atop a hill with a full view of the harbor and the San Pedro Channel and with excellent radar coverage of the area.

Obviously traffic seperation schemes so far from monitoring sources have to obeyed on the honor system... what's the point if skippers aren't going to take these schemes seriously. I listen to 14 more than I do to 16 when I am going in and out of the harbor and I hear skippers of these big container and petro boats catching s%$* once'n'awhile when they are not paying attention to the seperation scheme or the Precautionary buoys...pretty interesting though traffic never sounds as tough as my old catechism nuns.

BTW I went up and talked to the guys at traffic control and they told me that even as a "non-participant" (no transponder) recreational boater they appreciate being contacted with co-ordinates on a foggy day... once they are aware of you it can really help letting the big guys know where you are leaving and entering the harbor.
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Old 16-03-2012, 12:38   #52
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Obviously traffic seperation schemes so far from monitoring sources have to obeyed on the honor system... what's the point if skippers aren't going to take these schemes seriously. I listen to 14 more than I do to 16 when I am going in and out of the harbor and I hear skippers of these big container and petro boats catching s%$* once'n'awhile when they are not paying attention to the seperation scheme or the Precautionary buoys...pretty interesting though traffic never sounds as tough as my old catechism nuns.
In the English channel they get a whole lot more than a telling off. Scroll down here to "motorboat goes wrong way". And another, this time a fishing boat Misbehave and you don't just get a slapped wrist, you are in court looking at a big fine.

Though the incident in discussion here was actually quite long way away from any TSS.
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Old 16-03-2012, 12:47   #53
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

Thanks Conachair... I bookmarked that MCA site... interesting stuff.
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Old 16-03-2012, 12:59   #54
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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Thanks Conachair... I bookmarked that MCA site... interesting stuff.
It's actually quite scary reading, isn't it.

The first time I came across one of those fast cat ferrys was down that neck of the woods on an a beautiful calm slightly hazey day drifting along under sail. I got freaked out looking for the source of the dull throbbing noise, looking in lockers and even thought it might be a submarine. Then it appeared, zoomed past about a mile off and disappeared again ahead.

I wonder if the fishermen heard it, though at that speed there's not a lot of time, especially if they were involved with lifting or setting pots.
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Old 16-03-2012, 14:05   #55
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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I wonder if the fishermen heard it, though at that speed there's not a lot of time, especially if they were involved with lifting or setting pots.
The report says:
Just before the collision, on board the potter, the hand busy with the pot shooting heard suddenly an engine roaring very close and alerted his workmate. This latter, realizing the danger, faced the bow and shouted to the skipper:”Full astern, full astern!”; he wanted to rush to the wheelhouse, but he suddenly recoiled when he saw on the portside, appearing suddenly very fast out of the fog, a vessel with a collision course. He distinguished the inscription “CONDOR” on the hull.
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Old 16-03-2012, 14:44   #56
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

I think that this will be determined a shared responsibility. I think it will be mostly the ferry's fault, but the fishing boat captain was apparently watching or helping with the pots and so did not monitor the radar. He also wasn't sounding a fog signal, which in reality wouldn't have mattered as the bridge was sealed up on the ferry.

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Old 16-03-2012, 14:59   #57
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

It seems both parties share at least some responsibility, but most of the responsibility will probably be assigned to the ferry. Usually with collisions between vessels, it is more than one rule that was broken and by more than one party. If all of what is being described is accurate, I can think of at least six rules that were violated.
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Old 16-03-2012, 15:05   #58
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

It's interesting and I suppose it speaks to complacency. I can't imagine letting my guard down in fog but for those folks I would guess it became routine. I've made mistakes when I was comfortable with a situation let my guard down and my attention to be drawn from the water to something else; I think there's a lesson in it for us all.
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Old 16-03-2012, 16:14   #59
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

The bottom line is that it's BOTH skippers responsibility to not smash into each other. Yes, there are ROW rules, but the rules then clearly state that regardless you are still responsible for avoiding a collision, and for operating in a safe and prudent manner. I'm paraphrasing here, but unless the fishing boat jumped in front of the ferry, I don't see how the ferry operator doesn't carry a good chunk of resposnbility here.
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Old 16-03-2012, 16:19   #60
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 Rescued. Ferry Mows Down Boat in Fog.

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He also wasn't sounding a fog signal, which in reality wouldn't have mattered as the bridge was sealed up on the ferry.
That's not an excuse, though, right? You still have to maintain an effective watch, and being deaf to another boat's fog signal isn't very effective.
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