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Old 29-03-2011, 06:25   #31
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

From a recent study about English Channel traffic schemes...

3.5.6 In poor visibility, speed is recorded by the MAIB as an influencing factor in
one case. The MAIB has not recorded speed as an influencing factor in
other reported TSS incidents.

Obviously a concern...but out of all the recorded/reported incidents during the study's focus, speed was less of a factor than improper lookout use.
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Old 29-03-2011, 06:34   #32
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saucy Sailoress View Post
I think it would be very practical to go slower in order to improve operational safety, and perhaps even save lives. Would you drive at full speed down the highway in such thick fog? I think not.
I didn't say it's not practical to slow down - I said it's not practical for the vessel to go at a speed that allows it to stop in 15m.
We have radar and fog signals to allow us to safely transit through the fog. Even at 38 knots, it would take 3 minutes to cover the 2-mile range of a fog-signal - was the fishing vessel sounding one? Was the ferry sounding one? Did the ferry have sound-lookouts posted on the forecastle?
Safe speed is determined on a number of factors - they were in open ocean; do we know what the traffic density was? Do we know what the actual state of vis was? Was it solid fog, or patches?
It's very easy to cast judgment without knowing the facts - I'll wait for the investigation.
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Old 29-03-2011, 06:38   #33
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

how does a fishing boat get out of the way when it is hauling pots or landing its nets?
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Old 29-03-2011, 06:47   #34
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Not sure of the exact location...but mabe some of this would apply..

The Channel, with traffic in both the UK-Europe and North Sea-Atlantic routes, is the world's busiest seaways carrying over 500 ships per day.[25] Following an accident in January 1971 and a series of disastrous collisions with wreckage in February,[26] the Dover Traffic Separation System (TSS)[27] the world's first radar controlled TSS was set up by the International Maritime Organization.
In December 2002 the MV Tricolor, carrying 30m of luxury cars sank 32 km (20 mi) northwest of Dunkirk after collision in fog with the container ship Kariba. The cargo ship Nicola ran into the wreckage the next day. However, there was no loss of life.[citation needed]
The shore-based long range traffic control system was updated in 2003 and presently, there is a series of Traffic Separation Systems in operation.[28] Though the system is inherently incapable of reaching the levels of safety obtained from aviation systems such as the Traffic Collision Avoidance System, it has reduced accidents to one or two per year.[citation


If you look at the navrules...."conduct in ANY visibility" while in a traffic separation scheme requires fishing vessels to avoid vessels using that scheme. There even may be a requirement to contact the controlling agency to even be in the scheme....did the fishing vessel comply? To be as effective/safe as aviation...the rules have to be followed closely because speed is so high and necessary to be safe in aviation...that concept may be debatable in the maritime community.
Cheers for the input, but well south of the English Channel (and the traffic seperation schemes).



No restricted / controlled shipping lane where the incident occurred. It's simply the route from St Malo to Jersey (dictated by the Minquiers reef - at some states it is largely above the water. at some largely below).
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Old 29-03-2011, 07:01   #35
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I didn't say it's not practical to slow down - I said it's not practical for the vessel to go at a speed that allows it to stop in 15m.
We have radar and fog signals to allow us to safely transit through the fog. Even at 38 knots, it would take 3 minutes to cover the 2-mile range of a fog-signal - was the fishing vessel sounding one? Was the ferry sounding one? Did the ferry have sound-lookouts posted on the forecastle?
Safe speed is determined on a number of factors - they were in open ocean; do we know what the traffic density was? Do we know what the actual state of vis was? Was it solid fog, or patches?
It's very easy to cast judgment without knowing the facts - I'll wait for the investigation.
I would argue that even with radar, fog signals, lookouts - that travelling at 38 knots in fog is just asking for trouble. and the only reason anyone would do that is because they didn't expect to hit anything bigger.

Traffic density (this time of year) would have been "light". Mostly commercial shipping (on known timetables - probably only a couple a day, if that? the main ones being from that Ferry company) and fishing vessels, commercial and pleasure. The pleasure boat traffic to France / Jersey along that route doesn't really start until after spring / Easter, albeit I do know of some who do make the trip all year round........so can never say no one expected. The route is restricted simply by Les Minquiers Reef (or with it's "proper" name - "The Minkies" ) on one side, with the closer you go the quicker the passage time.
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Old 29-03-2011, 07:02   #36
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
how does a fishing boat get out of the way when it is hauling pots or landing its nets?
It can't. and probably a fair argument to say that anyone who hauls pots in Fog (and therefore intentionally restricts their manouevarbility) is unwise at best.........
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Old 29-03-2011, 07:06   #37
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Geez I am glad you lot will never sit on a jury together.
I ain't too much bothered with that side of things.

More interested in whether it turns out that 38 knots in fog when smaller vessels are expected to be in the way is considered acceptable behaviour. and in which case folks have to decide whether one writes a letter of complaint after they / family next get run down. or get a bit more proactive.

But nice to see you Multihull guys sticking together
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Old 29-03-2011, 07:22   #38
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

David,

At this point it seems an assumption that they were at 38 kts, at the time of the collision. Until this is determined by the investigation, we should hold off on the pronouncements of guilt.
BTW, this collision would have been as catastrophic if the ferry was doing 10 kts.
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Old 29-03-2011, 07:31   #39
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
how does a fishing boat get out of the way when it is hauling pots or landing its nets?
It can't...

So if in open water...it would have the right of way...

But if in a TSS, it would be mostly at fault for a collision because it is specifically spelled out for F/Vs to not impede vessels using the scheme.
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Old 29-03-2011, 07:34   #40
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pirate Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Fishing boat, fishing boat, I am sure I meant a fishing boat.
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant". ... Mark Twain & Capngeo

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Old 29-03-2011, 15:47   #41
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

Don't drag me or Sam Langhorne into this mess!
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Old 29-03-2011, 16:31   #42
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
It can't. and probably a fair argument to say that anyone who hauls pots in Fog (and therefore intentionally restricts their manouevarbility) is unwise at best.........

Is it common practice to fish in the traffic separation zones?
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Old 29-03-2011, 16:37   #43
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
A vessel shouldn't be moving faster than the distance it can stop within half the distance visible. Too bad that might hamper one's ability to meet the timetable's schedule.
I have to agree. It may be a case of "time is money" trumps good judgment.
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Old 30-03-2011, 01:42   #44
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

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Originally Posted by perchance View Post
Is it common practice to fish in the traffic separation zones?
No idea. But this incident was a couple of hundred miles south of the English Channel. and no formal / controlled sea lane - therefore no seperation zone existed......simply a bit of a choke point from the location of the Minkies Reef on one side (requiring a dog leg course from Jersey-St Malo). To be blunt, like driving down the high street at 70mph in Fog. Don't really matter if legal or not - sooner or later will run over someone......even if the town is quiet.
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Old 30-03-2011, 01:48   #45
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Re: 1 Dead - 2 rescued. Ferry mows down Boat in fog.

At 30 knots, The fisherman never had a chance. So sad and so avoidable.
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