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Old 02-12-2006, 06:34   #16
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Paul,

You didn't answer my question.

Can an administrator render an opinion?

Rick in Florida
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Old 02-12-2006, 07:19   #17
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Quote:
You didn't answer my question.
I don't think there is an answer to a hypothetical question. If you look at the post and delete the pasted story there isn't anything left to it.

Without the graphic picture and the professionally written story they would have had nothing to post other than "We went to the islands and something bad happened to some one we met." In that light it's a trip report without much of a report. It would also be allowed if written with the right subject - but no one would care.
While it may have sold newspapers it's not appropriate here as a story, but we delete it because it was copyrighted material. At that point we don't need more reasons nor should we have to debate all possible reasons.

When it's not a judgement call we don't need to go out of our way to make it into one.
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:13   #18
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Paul,

Excellent post and explaination, in this situation it is Black and White.
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:43   #19
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Originally Posted by Pblais
If you copy and paste into forum messages copyrighted material you can be sure it will be removed - no matter what it says about or not about cruising. This issue while not properly stated here on this thread was a serious factor in the pulling of the posting.

Given that the initial post was actually a published article that was pasted into a a Crusiers Forum message using our BBS is quite frankly the only reason required to pull it from the board.

Cruisers Forum takes the position that copyrights are to be respected. We have pulled some really great cruising information because the author did not give permission to post it here.
Thank you very much men for your attempt at an explanation. The story came from a press wire and has no copyright, therefore there is no copyright infringement to worry about. The writer was given credit for the story on the second line.
If possible please avoid speculation.
I could draw many conclusions from what has happened here but I prefer not to, instead I will wait for a reasonable explanation from the reasonable moderators of this group. Let's not make this into a debate about tolerance until after a decision has been reached. I was just trying to be helpful, at least I was able to give a heads up to a few people.
Rhonda
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:15   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike
Thank you very much men for your attempt at an explanation.
Rhonda
"men?"

As a person who has friends that are gay and lesbian, has lived in NYC and does so now, has had several lesbian couples as charter guests aboard my boat in the Hamptons, I take some offense to your hostility toward "men."

Why would you chose to single out "men" like that? Are you unhappy we are not "women?" What's the difference? You talk about intolerance, but yet you practice intolerance in the very same post.

I accept you, but since I'm a "man", you don't accept me? This is a highly intolerant response to someone who took the time to nicely explain to you some of the reasons the moderators decided to look into your post.

I wash my hands of helping your cause/post on this forum. You can take all that hostility and work on this yourself.
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:29   #21
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Sorry about that it was not meant at all that way. Please take this as an apology. I meant nothing by the use of this word.
Absolutely nothing at all, I was attempting to address.. well the best thing to say is "open mouth inset foot here"
Sorry
Rhonda
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:44   #22
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Originally Posted by Spike
Sorry about that it was not meant at all that way. Please take this as an apology. I meant nothing by the use of this word.
Absolutely nothing at all, I was attempting to address.. well the best thing to say is "open mouth inset foot here"
Sorry
Rhonda
Ok, Rhonda. If that's the case, I'm back on the case.

Sorry if I mis-understood your post. Sometimes when something is written, it is less readily apparent what the person is saying since it lacks a "tone of voice."

We'll get to the bottom of this removed post. The moderators are discussing it (done by posting and emails, so it's a slow process). Just hang in there and we'll find out what the story is. I know a lot of people on the board are waiting to find out.

Arayan - Not so sure where we are heavily moderated on this board, with the exception of spams/commercial postings. Any examples for us?
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:47   #23
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LMAO
Rhonda, take a word of advice, step back from all of this and let it sort itself out. The last thing you want is to be responsible for another bumfuzzle thread. You have received a few replies from moderators on this forum and it should clearly show you where they stand and what they may or may not wish to hide behind when taking a stand against your post. I suggest you do exactly what you said you will do and that is to just sit back and wait for a reply. Drop me a private or a call as your words can be misconstrued no matter what the intention.
Changing the subject, and hopefully hijacking I just got a great book in the mail that you recommended "how to sail around the world"
Drop me a call I have few questions.
Christopher
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Old 02-12-2006, 10:51   #24
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The discussion of bigotry as it applies to a popular crusing area seems to be a valid topic and not be "off topic".

Does any feel that the demogrphics of the sailing community does not reflect the greater community? If so what is the reason for this? Is there some sort of "racism" at work... perhaps? What are the barriers to sailing aside from cash, skill and will?

Jef
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Old 02-12-2006, 12:44   #25
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To both Defjef and Sundown. I understand your view. But think of this in a broader sense. There is bigotry and racism and you name it in America. The same could be said in every country of the owrld and I mean every country, even NZ. Because you will always find that minority that has those views that the majority of us find distasteful and hard to believe. The Caribean is no exception. There will be a majority in the Caribean that would be tolerant and a minority that is obviousely not. so if you are going to list Cruising grounds that could be dangerouse to folks, the list will be somewhat long.
Plus the Caribean story told in the way it was, makes it all rather prejudice. You are judging an entire country based on a few individuals.
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Old 02-12-2006, 13:56   #26
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[quote=Alan Wheeler]To both Defjef and Sundown. I understand your view. But think of this in a broader sense. There is bigotry and racism and you name it in America. The same could be said in every country of the owrld and I mean every country, even NZ. Because you will always find that minority that has those views that the majority of us find distasteful and hard to believe. The Caribean is no exception. There will be a majority in the Caribean that would be tolerant and a minority that is obviousely not. so if you are going to list Cruising grounds that could be dangerouse to folks, the list will be somewhat long. quote]

Please take a breath and read my post with a smile as I am not replying with any anger, perhaps disappointment but not anger.
Mr. Wheeler, I would suggest that perhaps you re-post my post and let the rest of the board know what you are talking about. It is easy to say that my post stated various things when the post is no longer around to be read by those who are reading these posts. The story was not an attack upon anyone, it was a warning, it was a NEWS STORY released to the WORLD WIDE PRESS.
Most people when visiting the Islands are not aware of the potential dangers due to the level of intolerance. When you are in the islands the last thing you would think of is the possibility of loosing your life for your life style.
I would suggest that you do a few searches on the web and you will see that the Bahamas/Caribbean is on the top ten list of places in the world when it comes to intolerance.. Do a search, perhaps some research. There are hate driven attacks all over the world, however there are places that are far less safe and tolerant than others. I speak from experience as well as public knowledge. I have lived and worked all over the world living my life style and witnessing various cultures takes on this life style.

This is a link to the Denver Post for Dec 2/06 The article tells of how the police are blind to the beatings and yes KILLING of gay people, in fact they were present during the killing..
http://www.denverpost.com/voices/ci_4400103

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.ilga.info/Information/Legal_survey/americas/supporting%20files/anti_homophobia%20speech%20Bahamas.htm
The above link is to a speech from Prime Minister Hubert Ingraham of The Bahamas.
If you take the time to read the entire speech/apology it should become clear the f a c t s I have stated.


I am by far a non political person, I live my life with the wind enjoying every day as it comes. I have been blessed with an amazing partner, a group of friends world wide and finally after years of work a successful chartering/diving business. I have a choice where I do business and where I live. I choose to live here knowing the risk, although it is much easier for women in the islands than it is for men.
I have never ever been involved in such a political stand when it comes to my life style. I do not push my life style on anyone, however I think I am now doing exactly that. For that I apologize.
Ask me about diving, as me about reading the water, ask me about fishing, rigging, and I am your girl. I take care of people, that is how I make my living and what I thought I was doing by sharing the post with the forum.
I am walking away from this post and this message board, I am one person and it appears I am currently the voice for all people who share my life style, something I never wanted to do or am able to do.
I am not sorry for warning people of the potential for violence against them in my part of the world due to life style. If my warning has affected at least one person that is great.
I am and now was new member here, it is up to the rest of the board to follow this through. Thank you very much for the database.

Rhonda Ouderkirk
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Old 02-12-2006, 15:46   #27
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Moderators,

I've followed and enjoyed this board for several years but never posted. This thread finally caused me to register. Sorry my first post is not about sailing. Let me first say that even without the copyright issue, I think the call on Rhonda's post could have gone either way, so I'm not here to bash your decision.

I do think, however, that Paul missed a great opportunity to enhance the boards credibility by answering Rick's question instead of repeatedly using the "that's a hypothetical question" dodge. I understand that sometimes people ask absurd hypothetical questions to box in their subject (TV interviewers come to mind), but that clearly was not the case here.

Contrary to Paul's view, a key function of rules IS to answer hypothetical questions. Furthermore, those questions are usually asked by the people the moderators should care about most - those who WANT to play by the rules. Before posting, they ask themselves "Is this post OK?", then try to decide based on the rules. It's impossible to write rules that cover every case, so a few relevant examples, even if hypothetical, could be very helpful.

Assuming well intentioned users, better understanding of the rules will lead to fewer misunderstandings and deleted posts. Understanding will also let people get nearer the edge without going over, which in my view makes for a more interesting board. I'm sure you don't enjoy deleting posts or dealing with the resulting flak, so I would think that anything that reduces the need for it (and makes the board more interesting) would be welcome.

Even with active moderation, boards like this can survive only with self imposed user restraint. Among reasonable users, this restraint is based mostly on respect for broadly accepted policies. It is not possible to respect a policy that you don't understand. If you are blown off when trying to gain that understanding, respect falls further. Respect also declines when those in power appear to secretive and defensive. I'm not saying that's the case, since I don't know any of you personally, but I can see how statements such as "This is not a debate", the shifting reason for deletion and the ducking of reasonable questions could create such a perception.

I suspect that you are a great bunch of guys without any agenda other than promoting sailing discussions. You all seem to know each other and communicate often. It may not occur to you that people from outside your circle, with only a written record to go on and without knowing you personally, might draw a different conclusion.

Many organizations have lousy products and try to compensate with slick public relations. You have created a great product but are messing it up with poor public relations.

Charlie

P.S. What is the answer to Rick's question?
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Old 02-12-2006, 16:22   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie p
P.S. What is the answer to Rick's question?
Well written and extremely relevant post Charlie. You've eloquently touched on a number of points that I've tried to convey in the backroom discussions on this matter. To answer Rick's question my answer is "Should we?" Answering a question with a question is probably one sure way to PO a lot of people but it's a greater consideration for Admins and mods. Should we express our views openly as by association one speaks for all or do we work silently in the background without voice. I don't know what the right answer is but haven stuck my foot in my own mouth numerous times I generally shy away from touchy subjects.

I think I was the second reader of the original post and although I did notice it was in the "Off Topic" forum it didn't strike me as being overly relevant to cruisers or boaters. I caught the slight association with the location of the event and how that could relate to cruising the caribbean. It would have been better presented in the "Destinations" threads as having a possible consequence for those with alternative lifestyles who may decide to visit this area by boat or other means. We have encountered posters in the past who register to just post one time similar posts to support a singular cause of theirs without consideration of the other visitors to these forums. We liken this to SPAM and are very cognisant of its affect to the virtual community we've helped to foster here. It's rare that someone who posted a message like this actually returned to post again so some of us were taken aback.

It's an often thankless job trying to keep these discussions on track, keeping the filth and spam out of public view and by its nature having to censor or censure sometimes brings ridicule. Rest assured we're working hard in the background to try to figure out a process to avoid this type of situation from happening again. When we're ready we'll make our intentions known to all.

Regards
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Old 02-12-2006, 16:51   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike
The story came from a press wire and has no copyright, therefore there is no copyright infringement to worry about. The writer was given credit for the story on the second line.
In much of the world, everything written is copyrighted. The only way that a written work can have no copyright is either 1) the copyright expired, or 2) the author explicitly renounces the copyright. It doesn't need a copyright notice, and it doesn't need to say "all rights reserved".

Even trivial things, like your grocery list, are copyrighted. Your post that I'm quoting is copyrighted. My reply here is copyrighted.

You can distribute copies of copyrighted material, IF you have permission from the owner of the copyright. Press wire services usually make money by selling the right to make copies of the stories they distribute. They want money, because you can't feed your children with "credit for the story".
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Old 02-12-2006, 16:51   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike
The story came from a press wire and has no copyright, therefore there is no copyright infringement to worry about.
I'm not an IP attorney, but frankly off the top of my head, I'm not so sure about that statement. You may be correct, (my uninformed guess is you may be very wrong, though) but my spidey-sense tingles when I hear people throw out legal opinions without backing them up.
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