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Old 20-10-2006, 14:25   #31
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The notion that everything written in an online discussion forum is unreliable is a straw dog argument. If it is not to believed... ever.. who cares what is said... everyone reading know this is all fantasy BS of mythical people just having some cyber fun.

But really this is not the case. Most people who register and participate in this and similar fora are serious sailors and when they raise a product performance issue they do so not to destroy some company... which is unlikely dispite how "powerful" some thing online forums are... but to alert other sailors, to get some assistance and to see if their problem is a recurring one.

The marine industry is very fragmented and you boats is an assemblage of all sorts of products from many different companies and often even from different countries... and you as owner is left to deal with each component and its manufacturer on a one to one basis. Getting support is often very hard, but can be very good. I have had several things replaced .. just like that... no questions asked... Never gonna happen with Bosch.. ever!

When some DOES have a product performance issue THIS IS the place to place it as notice to other sailors AND the manufacturers. Let them read these fora and pick up there service a bit. Never can have too good service.. eh?

If these mfgs WERE reading this fora and WERE concerned about their products AND their reputation they would address all legitimate claims and those that are not, then it behooves THEM to set the record straight if some incorrect installation or use was the cause of the failure. The owners of this site are no more liable than the owners of the servers or the internet and this is simply paranopia, nonsense and stupidity to try to suppress product performance discussions because they appear to open "someone" up to lawsuits. RUBBISH.

If someone is making false claims, it will surface quick enough. And if mfgs are selling shoddy products to thousands of consumers.. it should surface pretty quick... not quick enough. Because at best you might be compensated for a part replacement and not all the additional costs associated with their unreliable product.

Rant over.

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Old 20-10-2006, 14:58   #32
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Hellosailor, You are correct. You pay for quality
DefJef, the issue is not if the mfg is concerned or not, or even if the post is accurate, but if the product is, in fact, what the poster is claiming. If any of the 3000 plus members of this forum chooses not to buy a Gori Prop based on this post, it has caused harm to the company, and if no one tells them the post is there, or even that there is an issue, they have been unfairly effected by this post. That is why it is so important to find out all of the available facts of this situation, and why it is so important for the mfg to be made aware that there is a discussion going on about their product. At the very best, we may expose a deficiency in thier manual that they can correct for future customers. At the very least, they can ignore the conversation, and as such, expose a lack of customer service. Either way, a calm discussion of the facts, without personal attacks will bring about a clearer understanding of the quality of the prop, and the mfg.
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Old 20-10-2006, 15:27   #33
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I don't / wouldn't take the word of any post I read for such an important decision as the sole basis for a purchase decision. It might influence me or make me investigate a bit further. I don't think any does that sort of thing either. Sailors are pretty independant thinkers and problem solvers.

I am all for calm discussions. Just the facts please... and let the chips fall where they may.

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Old 20-10-2006, 15:34   #34
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In this day and age, one could argue that any vendor who is NOT doing a formal daily web seach for their name (or using one of the corporate services who will do it) is either beyond reproach, or too obsolete to stay in business.
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Old 20-10-2006, 15:56   #35
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Hey, I appreciate dinosaurs. They give the best deals
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Old 22-10-2006, 13:05   #36
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Hellosailer, I think that is a little rugged. Not ALL the world is on a equal footing with the internet globaly yet.
Defjef, some may view a post the way you do, others may not. Depends on the way we talk;-)
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Old 22-10-2006, 13:40   #37
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You're right, not all the world is on the net. But any vendor who is engaged in commerce? International commerce? I beg to differ.

Once upon a time, businesses didn't have telephones. Heck, even the big US railroad barrons had telegraph offices! And brokers had stock market tickers. Then telephones became a requirement for businesses. And Telex was the sign of a "serious" international business for many years, if you didn't have one, you didn't do international business except by post. Telex fought with fax for a long time but today?

Western Union even got out of the telegraph business in the US, after many years (35?) of using the telephone and post to deliver messages.

In today's business world, if a vendor does not have email and internet access, even in a remote corner of the world, they are truly a tiny player. Considering that the US is now ranked something like 10th for overall internet availablility and speed (our fastest home connections are apparently 10x the price and 1/10th the speed of a number of other countries)...If that's brutal, Wheels, it's still true.

I don't expect the Wokeatonga Artisanal Organic Mushroom Jewelry Cooperative to be a major web presence...but I wouldn't be surprised if they were, and using the web as their whole international marketing key.<G>

A company like Gori, operating out of a country like Denmark, *certainly* can monitor their presence on the web, including web forums. Whether their management is sharp enough to do so, or whether their management thinks it matters whether they do so, is another thing entirely. Personally, when I see a company with an international multi-lingual web site that offers things like downloads and product details--and then doesn't bother to put *any* technical information, installation information, parts ordering schematics, etc up on their web site?

I know someone at that company simply isn't taking care of business in the modern age. Mind you, I know some businesses that still do things in the old fashioned way, simply answer the phone and work miracles for even the smallest customer. That's good enough for me. But to offer products internationally, and then not bother to back them up on that same multilingual web site? What's so hard about scanning the same papers that should be in every box, and posting them?!

I know, I'm a hard customer. The good news is, when a company does impress me--you can be pretty sure they'll impress you too.<G>
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Old 23-10-2006, 13:04   #38
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Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler
Anything else without the ability of the other party replying is considered slander and will not be tolerated here. Don't like it? sorry that's the board we are presenting.
In order to be slanderous, it has to not only be defamatory/malicious, but false. As long as the account is factual, it is not slanderous.
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Old 23-10-2006, 13:42   #39
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I can understand where the mods are coming from - I certainly wouldn't want to be caught in the middle of someone elses legal slanging match, no matter whether I was right or wrong.

But having said that, my reading of the "Rules" is that as long as someone does not add wild allegations* when being critical about a product / service then no real problem - it should be easy enough for most folk to convey to others the fact that they are gravely dissapointed with a Product and give others more than pause for thought.

* I.e. not saying something along the lines "I bought a can of Coca Cola and it gave me Aids" and instead saying something like "I bought a can of Coca Cola and it left me feeling not quite as refreshed as I had hoped, in fact I beleive that instead I would have been more refreshed with a Pineapple Enema. Unpeeled "
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Old 23-10-2006, 14:10   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaLeLu
In order to be slanderous, it has to not only be defamatory/malicious, but false. As long as the account is factual, it is not slanderous.
How do we know this prop was installed properly. The orig'l poster will not respond on this thread anymore.

Quote:
I can understand where the mods are coming from - I certainly wouldn't want to be caught in the middle of someone elses legal slanging match, no matter whether I was right or wrong.

But having said that, my reading of the "Rules" is that as long as someone does not add wild allegations* when being critical about a product / service then no real problem - it should be easy enough for most folk to convey to others the fact that they are gravely dissapointed with a Product and give others more than pause for thought.

by David Old Jersey
And this is why this thread still exists, we haven't been able to prove/disprove the allegations. It's just one man's rant about a product that he thinks he should be compensated for losing. His response to questions is absent, even though he's posted elsewhere in the past days. He may be the blame for the whole situation and trying to put the blame elsewhere. "He says, they says"
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Old 23-10-2006, 21:59   #41
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Once and for all, let's clarify this, and get back on topic. This is OK:
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Originally Posted by gegroves
Please be advised of a problem with Gori Propellers and their US distributor, AB Marine. The propeller can spin off and be lost. We lost ours while maneuvering to anchor in a harbor in Turkey. We notified AB-Marine immediately by email and telephone and left a voice mail message. Since the initial notifications, we have emailed them six times and called three times. They have never responded to any of these messages. After five weeks we were finally able to reach someone at AB Marine.

AB Marine and Gori Propeller have denied that this occurrence is a warranty issue. They claim that the prop can spin off only if it hits something or is installed improperly. I personally installed the propeller six months ago in the US. I know it was properly installed in accordance with the printed instructions provided with the propeller and we did not hit anything with it.

As I understand their position, if the propeller was installed properly then it cannot come off. Ironically, they claim in their brochure “Shaped Blade vs. Flat Blade Comparison” dated January 2005, that the propeller is so easy to install that “there is no chance of a mistake” and “it can be easily installed/removed underwater.” If the propeller is so easy to install that there is no chance of a mistake and then spins off, then logic suggests the reason it came off should not be one of improper installation. They cannot have it both ways.

I know this seems like sour grapes, but when I pay $2800 for a product, I expect to hear back from the company when I write and call repeatedly about a serious problem. Failing to respond to any correspondence for over a month is inexcusable.

Gary
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This is the portion of the post that is of concern:

"Be forewarned, if you buy from AB Marine or Gori Propellers and have a warranty or service issue – forget it. They only want your money. They do not care about you once they get it"

So, again, I will ask, was the prop recovered? Is there any indication why it failed? This is in no way an attack on Gary, but a serious effort to determine what if any problem acrually exists with the Gori prop.
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Old 23-10-2006, 22:26   #42
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Proverbs I

I thought the saying was that "The truth is the greatest slander".
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Old 25-10-2006, 12:20   #43
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At the risk of elongating a winded discussion. I am all for people expressing their opinions online, especially in well respected forums. I have never heard of a forum owner, nor an ISP being held financially responsible for a user's actions online in regards to slander/libel. The greatest measure I have heard being taken is asking the forum owners to remove a post... but that is it.

Now, this post was informative. Sure it was charged a little with emotion... but I am smart enough to read past that. When I do a search to find if a product is worth while, and there are 20 of these sorts of forum posts, I will then question wether I want to still buy from that company. Usually, however, if someone posts this sort of thing, and it is not the normal opperating proceedure for a company, other users are quick to jump in, and share their possitive opinions. Also, the truth of the problem likely comes out too (as the installation of this prop for example)... thus the topic still serves as a great device for research.

Ofcourse, the mods are the ones with the delete buttons, and the rights to use them... this is their place... and I support them taking actions they deem necessary. If I think they are censoring too much, I will leave, and find another place... as I suspect alot of people would. I would, however, say it is dangerous to throw out terms like slander, and hear-say without knowing well there meanings, and application to particular circumstances.

I would hope that the moderators would remove posts that do not serve purpose except to make people mad. I would say that this was not such a post, and someone wanting to describe a negative opinion about a retailer should be allowed. The power of the community is in the collection of opinions... this is why the rating systems on EBAY and Amazon are considered so powerful. Censorship is a dangerous thing.
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Old 25-10-2006, 17:53   #44
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I think it's fine to talk about products in any way you like even if you can't do it very well, but to make statements about people can often cross the line. If the real point is the product then to devote the bulk of the post to bad mouthing the vendor and distributor with the intent of taking out a free advertisement to attack a business seems at cross purposes to this forum.

I think we can all agree Cruisers Forum serves the interests of boaters and not the intrests of personal complaints even if boating related. It's one thing to say a product was made bad, performed poorly, and never worked, was over priced or poorly serviced but another to make the claim the vendor conspired with the distributor to cheat me. The latter makes a claim for which we can not judge or gain from. It is an act that serves the posters desire for revenge and nothing more. Using Cruisers Forum as a means to your own end is limited to our classifieds section where you can offer items for sale and keep the money and pay us nothing. That is as far as we go.

We are not a free forum for saying anything you won't stand up and fight for in a proper legal forum for on your own. We won't work on your behalf to get you a refund and you can't come here to claim one.

We don't allow members to fight with each other and it seems reasonable to not let them fight with non members as well. There are true avenues for filing formal complaints. Some members may offer advice on how to file a complaint and that does serve members. There is a difference in asking how to file a complaint about something vs. I am mad so listen to me.

We prefer to promote discussion. It keeps the place interesting. We considered pulling this thread, but we didn't. We don't censor but we do delete. If something you write is deleted - you will hear about it directly to your message box. We pull spam adds as fast as someone can spot them. We also attempt to ban those posters that do so. We think it looks better. We think you appreciate it too.
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Old 25-10-2006, 18:17   #45
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How does a manufacturer's custom support and after sales service fit into the whole picture?

Are manufacturers expected to provide support and responsive, curteous support as well as tangible products?

Suppose you owned something from manufacturer X and need some support for a problem. Is it reasonable to expect real tech support from someone and not have to deal with a help desk? What is mfg X offers online support... what is a reasonable time for them to reply? How do you deal with them if their answer doesn't help? Is it wrong to dump on a company who doesn't provide quality support? Where do "authorized" dealers for mfg X's products fit into the picture? If you can't get back through or up to the rain makers at mfg X because of dealer networks... what recourse do you have?

Is it wrong to dump on a dealer and not the manufacturer when you have a gripe?

What say you?

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