Forum Fundamentalism

[Andy R]

little boat, please excuse all the hubub lately. In the end we are all on the same page and want the same thing (to transfer knowledge about boats, cruising, etc). Most people don't understand how much work goes on trying to keep the peace and some passionate emotions were triggered this week and we are still trying to recover from them. The membership has been vocal about what they want (no censorship, an open place to discuss things, a place where multihull owners can have discussions without monohull folks raining on their parade, etc.). I am going to work with the team in the weeks to come to find solutions for these requests. Various parties involved in this hubub could have done things differently but there is no need to point fingers. The best solution now is to find solutions and move forward. In the end our community will be stronger.

[psteele235]

I think there is a shift in sailing / cruising that needs to be addressed here.

1) People sail around the world with one or more hulls. While single hulled vessels presently outnumber multi hulls, the multi hull fraternity is growing.

2) We are all members of the same cruising brother (and sister) hood.

3) This forum, and the internet, has become an integral part of the cruising world. In the "old "days a cruising sailor could be out of contact with family and friends for months. No more.

4) This is a WONDERFUL forum. But it is not the only forum. The cruising tradition is for sailors to look out for and assist each other - an exchange of knowledge, labor etc.

5) There is an excellent argument that this forum should allow links to others, and vice versa. After all, if we don't look at others efforts how will we know that this IS the best place to be?

6) Any talk of people leaving this forum, Alan, because this subject is being debated is bullcaca. This is one of the values of this forum - honest, open debate with ensuing agreement or disagreement as the case may be.

7) The time spent on debating this issue by all, including the Moderators, IMHO is excessive considering the numbers of hours of pure joy everyone could otherwise have if they got on with our main purpose - which is cruising.

And so, good night!

[Pblais]

2) We are all members of the same cruising brother (and sister) hood.

Well Patrick you clearly get the prize for today. I've found this whole debate a bit of a bad joke. One hulls or two hulls - lots of different boats! One mast two masts give it a rest. It's all mostly about showing up. We all have so much more in common that it makes me laugh to think one is any different. This leaves out a whole group of power boats and where I come from they make up half my friends. They do cruise too.

Patrick, the really good news is this thread is out of 164,000 other posts and really isn't important. We have more history to the the contrary that makes the case better than this thread does. We on occasion take diversions and yet always return where we started from. This one case of a few threads just kicked up a lot more wake than deserved. The rest of the forum seems no less the worse for it. They must have the truer course. There are over 13,000 members now and most of them never read this thread. We should join them or go sailing. I'm headed out in the morning and would love to see anyone on the water.

[Ex-Calif]

Any Forum as it grows, will eventually outgrow "some" of the membership. It's like any "club" there is an atmosphere and there are rules and standards.

Some people over time rebel or change their opinions about the rules. I have seen many forums where a "faction" has split off to start its own site. Usually taking a core group of similar minded people. In none of those cases were the departing members allowed to "advertise" their departure or their new site.

Some of the splinter sites have taken off. Many haven't. This place, over years, has built a "brand" image and so attracts more and more new members. It takes years to get traction.

It is not fair for any new site to harvest the people here.

As for why a new site - It really shouldn't concern any of us. It's a personal decision by those who set it up.

I for one am a straddler - My next boat will be a cruising cat. My current boat is a mono. I think most "debates" are truly people with real world experience on both designs sharing - The mods do an excellent job avoiding thingns getting "personal."

I am very happy that both communities are here - I learn a ton every day. I would not spend time in a mono only forum or a multi only forum because I have great interest in both.

(Note to mods - I think you guys are very patient explaining the "rules" and the reasons but maybe you explain too much - I hate to see you gys "dragged into a debate about how to run things - you have too much on your plate already.)

[ssullivan]

Reading this thread and the others that have arrived on this forum saddens me.

Why?

The person hosting the site and I conceived of the idea of a small, informal multihull site so we could talk to other multi owners and people looking to buy multis.

The site was created simply to be a place for the free exchange of ideas between multi owners and enthusiasts, much like any specific site for Catalinas, Hinckleys or what have you.

The site was *not* created to gather a large membership, get linked to revenue generators like GoogleAds, Adwords, or standard banner advertisers. In fact, there is absolutely no advertising at all, it is not a commercial venture (there is no money to be made running forums) and was created in good spirit.

Factor (I'm guessing since I've never talked to him directly before) was trying to let others know that there was a spot where multi enthusiasts could have their own little spot to discuss multi-related issues. I should point out that multi-related issues are *not* cruising related issues. We have special things to talk about like:

*drying the boat out on a flat
*saildrives
*multihull rig tuning
*weight distribution
*those bouncing bows..

The "other" forum was started so we could have a spot for multi owners to have a conversation amongst themselves from time to time. In my eyes, there obviously is no other "cruising forum" out there. I almost have never looked at SSCA, Sailnet or others. They aren't as good as this one.

So there was never any intention to "harvest" cruisers from here, or to even have our site made public on here. It just happened because one of our very first members wanted to spread the word about the new nook to discuss multi-only type stuff.

I should also add that any similarity to the cruisers forum in layout (there is some) is only because when setting up the forum software, we had to toss in some generic categories. These categories were not chosen well, as we were literally setting up software and dumping in anything, just as a beta test of the software itself.

A member or two were on there as a test basis, when the forum was published on this site, without our knowledge. We were caught without a forum that was ready for the eyes of others. I mean it didn't even have its own URL (web address) yet and was just being hosted on a test server.

We will be editing those categories and making them all multi-specific shortly. I just returned from a couple thousand mile delivery and I'm trying to get things in order. I will be working to make sure the topics are all properly titled, have little to do with cruising and are very multi-specific just as soon as I get things in order here.

So... the new forum causing all the unfortunate emotions is not what it may have appeared to be to some. All the stress, anger, hostility and whatever resulted is very unfortunate, and I am deeply sorry for it. The other little forum we created is not a replacement for the Cruiser's Forum. It is only a spot for multi owners to talk amongst themselves about multi-specific boating information. In fact, it is so far from cruising, I see it having people on Hobie Cats and any other multis conversing and breaking down that type of info (performance, etc...) as well.

So please do forget this all has happened. Any strong reaction to our little area on the internet is unwarranted on either side of the "argument." It's just another little nook to have a discussion (completely non-commercial and actually *costs* the host of the site money to run).

It's certainly understandable that from the perspective of AndyR and the mod team it appeared that people were trying to harvest members of their forum, which would have been in extremely poor taste. Unfortunately, Factor was just trying to help other multi owners see the spot to talk multis and it didn't go over well.

Let's all forget about the "censorship" argument on here and get back to talking cruising. After all, is there a better site on the internet to talk about cruising than this one????

I think not!

[donradcliffe]

I too have been blocked from posting on a multihull thread, when I was trying to provide technical information on multihull stability. Now I know how Galileo felt when he tried to tell the church that the earth was round. I also got a PM from an ex-multihull sailor whose posts were also blocked. My conclusion is that the mutlihull forum is controlled by moderators whose sole purpose is to promote multihulls. I don't know whether its for their ego or their financial interests, but their censorship of any information which might be construed as negative is a disservice to the multihull community.

The sea does not forgive fools.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I too have been blocked from posting on a multihull thread, .

which Forum? ( and to ensure no dramas, just describe it generally - as in the English one or the new one or the schionning site etc)

[donradcliffe]

I'm a little confused by the "which forum" question, but it was in cruisersforum.com under the Fleet heading, multihulls section.

[David M]

Sean,
I think it is a little over the top to think that if someone were to learn about another boating forum in this forum that they would be coming to this forum any less in the future. I also respect the fact that this is not my forum and the members here are required to follow the forum rules. My guess is that most members are thinking along these lines.

David

[Factor]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I'm a little confused by the "which forum" question, but it was in cruisersforum.com under the Fleet heading, multihulls section.

I dont think any of the MODS on cruisers forum "multihulls" are multihull sailors.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

My conclusion is that the mutlihull forum is controlled by moderators whose sole purpose is to promote multihulls. I don't know whether its for their ego or their financial interests, but their censorship of any information which might be construed as negative is a disservice to the multihull community.

I noticed the more active moderation in the Multi section a good while back..........but I think your reasoning is incorrect.

I don't see the Mods with any interest in promoting Multis (or Monos or even Mobo's) - The impression I have is that some posts / threads are moderated as they might / possibly / vaguely be construed as being less than 150% positive......and done by the Mods for the benefit of members with Multihulls (plus I guess an attempt at a quieter life for the Mods).

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

The impression I have is that some posts / threads are moderated as they might / possibly / vaguely be construed as being less than 150% positive......and done by the Mods for the benefit of members with Multihulls (plus I guess an attempt at a quieter life for the Mods).

Interesting observation. I think it's unfounded, yet interesting. I see exactly the opposite happening. I'd like to humbly point out that if it was happening the way you described, none of the multi guys would be upset.

[donradcliffe]

Go back and read the thread on "are cats truely blue water/long passage capable. You can see that when I tried to explain why I was concerned about blue water passages in cats, it degenerated into personal attacks on me. Then I, not the attackers, was cut off from posting. So here's a mono guy who is upset.

[Seismic Joe]

Hi Andy - thanks for the considered response. Yes, I'm sure it's difficult steering some discussions along the 'middle way' and this one is no exception, it seems! I'd like to add my thanks to the moderators on this forum as well for their time and efforts (mostly in the background) and their balanced views....... good forum, interesting topics, experienced members....long may you run!

[GordMay]

I don’t feel that I’m properly doing my job (here on the CF, or at my paid vocation), unless someone is seriously ticked off at me.
By which standard, I’m sure that certain members would expect me to be proud of my (immoderate) moderation.
[only 97.74% in jest]